The problem is that a lot of what happens in American prisons really is absurd, Kafkaesque, sadism apparently for its own sake, and yet this hasn't actually led

The problem is that a lot of what happens in American prisons really is absurd, Kafkaesque, sadism apparently for its own sake, and yet this hasn't actually led to the reductio. When we know that other approaches are better for society in that they lead to less recidivism, and are also less painful for the criminals, and yet continue to push in the opposite direction, it's reasonable to ask if there are any limits to our appetite for inflicting pain. If we can't even ask, then imo that is what prevents the meaningful discussion.