12 ms·
How this isn't exclusively military tech is beyond me. If this sort of thing is available to anyone with a chequebook then what does the military have? It is b
by monkeynotes 8y ago
How this isn't exclusively military tech is beyond me. If this sort of thing is available to anyone with a chequebook then what does the military have?
It is begging for a weapon to be mounted to it and sent to patrol the streets of dystopia.
The Police will for sure be buying stuff like this with the argument that it will save cop's lives in hostile situations. From there we'll have to get used to seeing automated enforcement. Oh poop, I am getting into the obvious slippery slope arguments, it's just so hard to not be cynical about tech like this. The world is rapidly changing again </luddite>.
- phowat 8y agoThose things remind me of the Rat Things from Snow Crash.
- aje403 8y agoI don't want to derail the conversation either, but they're owned by softbank which is a glorified holding company of Alibaba (slight exaggeration, granted), so there is a valid tinfoil hat national security argument to be made if there's a million of them running around the street in 10 years.
- rattray 8y agoSoftBank is Japanese and has significant stakes in the US (eg Uber) as well, fwiw. I'm sympathetic to the underlying sentiment, however. China is starting to look scary and our IP might be worth watching out for.
- aje403 8y agoSoftbank has $150 billion in Alibaba - drew them back from the brink way back iirc. Any foreign ownership in Alibaba relies on the goodwill of the Chinese government. Who knows what relationship they can or will have - don't actually think it's too much of a stretch to question. Completely agree on the IP
- tzahola 8y agoAFAIK the DoD lost interest in Boston Dynamics BigDog, because their petrol engine was too noisy on the field and the electric version was too weak.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- John_KZ 8y agoDid anyone serious buy that? I mean, come on. They literally have sci-fi terminator in their hands, except it's better than the movie.
- technics256 8y agoIf you haven't seen the black mirror episode "Metal Head", it will be right up your alley. This was the first thing I thought of when I saw the demo.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- 282883392 8y agoFun fact, that episode was actually based off of their previous videos.
- radiorental 8y agoIt's really hard to see how a wepaonised version could be of practical use in an active situation. Granted, it has that nice Hollywood sci-fi look about it, I feel it wouldn't be any more accurate than throwing a grenade into a room. I would imagine one group opposed to such a device would be the police themselves. They are as likely to get shot as anyone else. I think a more practical application would be camera mounted infantry for SWAT teams. And, based on some of the incidents we've seen recently, assessing situations is where many interactions go south.
- monkeynotes 8y agoMounting a facial recognition face-tracking camera-gun combo is somehow going to be inaccurate? Walk the dog round the corner of a bank-heist hostage situation, have it stand on guard and shoot whenever it gets a human verified lock? I know saying use 'technology' is like saying use 'magic', but all of this seems totally within the boundaries of what is available today or near-tomorrow at the very least. As for cops being shot up by one of these, I am not sure many criminals would see the value of investing significant amount of money and know-how into one. Especially as it would easily be traced back to a purchaser. SWAT teams with just the recon implementation is worrisome enough as that's clearly just a stone-throw to a weaponized version once they gain confidence in it.
- Y_Y 8y ago> bank-heist hostage situation, have it stand on guard and shoot whenever it gets a human verified lock It's about time someone disrupted the field of killing hostages.
- wombatpm 8y agoWhy can't we do the same thing with a swarm of cheap drones with a single shot zip gun? Navigate to within a couple feet and shot them in the face?
- monkeynotes 8y ago
- warent 8y agoSome potential non-military applications that come to mind: 1. Scientific expeditions. For example, it may be able to get closer to flowing magma or hot geysers for samples than humans safely could. 2. Extraterrestrial expeditions. 3. Construction industries. 4. Rescue operations (post-earthquake; collapsed buildings; etc.)
- monkeynotes 8y agoFor sure there are non-mil applications, no denying that. It doesn't negate the concern that the military must be craving something like this though.
- MikkoFinell 8y agoWhy would it be a bad thing if the military had access to more tech?
- monkeynotes 8y agoMy point was that this is crazy high tech that I am surprised isn't limited to the military. I am wondering if this is consumer grade, what does the military have. That said, more tech for the military means more investment into the idea that killing each other is a splendid idea. To me that seems counter to what technology is ideally about. I am an idealist though, so dismiss that comment as you wish.
- MikkoFinell 8y agoI'm not sure I understand your perspective on that. Ostensibly, the purpose of your defensive forces is to protect you, and don't you want them to be well equipped for that purpose? To me, your statement looks equivalent to saying that equipping the police to do their job is like an investment into the idea that putting people in prison is a splendid idea. I'm not sure that's what you were saying, although you could say that if you are hyper cynical. But even if you were, I know where you will call when someone is breaking into your house at night.
- xiaolingxiao 8y agoIt can be used to inspect off shore oil rigs. They are full of stairs and something like this could be ideal. Oil companies are also less price sensitive. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spot Mini costs as much as a luxury sedan, unless they sell them at a loss.
- vanattab 8y agoI thought stairs were on of the hardest aspects for robots to master. I know the four leg bots are better but I still think having these heavy dense robots climbing 4+ stories of stairs would present more of a danger then it would help mitigate. Some kind of special built inspection system that runs along rails or something seems like a better use case.
- fixermark 8y agoThey are, but if you pull up the videos of Big Dog and its smaller chassis-brethren, you find that they're quite a ways towards solving that problem. That having been said: special-built inspection systems would make more sense if it's cheaper to retrofit one in than to buy a robodog.
- komali2 8y ago>Some kind of special built inspection system that runs along rails or something seems like a better use case. Drones are getting popular ,with laser scanners mounted on them, for older platforms. But what really makes the most sense to me is just locally networked sensors stuck right on the equipment. Not IoT, L(an)oT.
- abakker 8y agoThe logical response is that of course it _could_ be weaponized, but, there are a whole host of cheaper drones that are much better candidates than this for that purpose. I’d bet on inspection/rescue in mines, demolition sites, and anywhere indoors with stairs or rough surfaces where people should not go. Maybe you could use them for mine sweeping. Real question is whether they’ll make a version that makes no sparks so it can work in flammable atmosphere environments.
- cm2187 8y ago> Real question is whether they’ll make a version that makes no sparks so it can work in flammable atmosphere environments. Can't you "dress up" the robot?
- abakker 8y agoI don't think you can for environments with continuous exposure - http://www.rstahl.com/fileadmin/Dateien/tgus/Documents/ExProtection_Global-America-Basics.pdf http://www.rstahl.com/fileadmin/Dateien/tgus/Documents/ExPro... usually there is a requirement not to use any relays that have physical contactors and other similar parts.
- ryanmarsh 8y agoCarrying heavy things is (by my humble estimation) 4/5 of war. So if there’s something that can carry heavy things, yes it will be used for that purpose.
- fixermark 8y agoBig Dog was floated for that purpose and failed to meet the requirements. (Specifically, it was intended to be a marines platform---I guess the main infantry doesn't need it because they already have trucks?---but it didn't meet the goals for power constraint or noise constraint).
- ryanmarsh 8y ago
- fvdessen 8y agoI don't really see the threat considering how much cheaper and more effective it is to give that weapon to a young man rather than mounting it on that expensive robot.
- empath75 8y agoIts a lot easier to find robots willing to massacre innocent people.
- BrainInAJar 8y agoThat's demonstrably false
- nbeleski 8y agoThis solves the General problem, from Bertolt Brecht's poem :)
- raisedbyninjas 8y agoThe threat is to anybody who those in power label the out-group. For too many people, risking lives of the the "good guys" is the only cost weighed for violence.
- monkeynotes 8y agoTell that to the guy balancing the military pension and medical compensation books.
- Beltiras 8y agoYou don't even have to arm it. Scouting and as a flanking unit in breaching situations is enough to show the value of the robot for tough police situations.
- theklub 8y agoWhat's the counter? Weapons that disable robots.. Also they already killed someone with a robot,https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/08/police-bomb-robot-explosive-killed-suspect-dallas https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/08/police-bo...
- cookingrobot 8y agoHere’s an alternate proposal: don’t add any kind of weapon to it, and use it to replace the police in everything but the most extreme situations. This way people don’t need to feel their life is in danger during regular interactions with police.
- zitterbewegung 8y agoThey tried marketing a similar system for military applications. The military refused it because it was too noisy. [1] The Police may have similar concerns. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/30/us-marines-reject-bigdog-robot-boston-dynamics-ls3-too-noisy https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/30/us-marine...
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoThe Big Dog has an internal combustion engine (what I take to be an electrical generator) that is about as loud as a chainsaw[1]. SpotMini makes servo noises, but it's all-electric, and quite a bit less noisy. 1: https://youtu.be/cNZPRsrwumQ https://youtu.be/cNZPRsrwumQ
- imglorp 8y agoNah. If they're chasing a bad guy out of a building, this is great stuff: just like a barking K-9 officer, bad guy will either run or surrender. With a little armor, he won't be able to shoot it. And with some simple kind of IFF (infrared coded beacon maybe?) you could keep cops out of its sights.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Proof 8y agoOf course, the police will find a way to weaponise them. In the end, the Police will justify its weaponisation by saying things like “it is for Officer’s safety” or “It neutralises a ‘threat’ without putting a officer’s life at risk.” Similar avenues have been taken already to justify small police stations owning fucking tanks in USA. A more realistic route, I’m willing to wager on, is that Military will do it first and it will handed down to a Gestapo Force near you! Er, I mean Police Department!
- jpasholk 8y agoYeah, you’re spot on. The world is becoming an increasingly scary place.
- pjc50 8y ago> It is begging for a weapon to be mounted to it and sent to patrol the streets of dystopia. Normally people use the humble Toyota Hilux for this; should that be restricted to the military?
- lintroller 8y agoThe Toyota Hilulx is not autonomous...yet. There's still a human being holding the weapon.
- monkeynotes 8y agoPerhaps if the Hilux had been invented in WW1 it would have been a prime candidate for military application. But these days the military has Humvees and tanks and so on. A Hilux is no match for cutting edge equipment else the US Army would not have developed more capable analogs.
- pjc50 8y agoReference to http://www.newsweek.com/why-rebel-groups-love-toyota-hilux-74195 http://www.newsweek.com/why-rebel-groups-love-toyota-hilux-7... "Conventional" military is the least interesting cutting edge now; much the actual fighting of the present day is extremely cost-sensitive re-purposed civilian equipment. Another example: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/11/swarm-of-armed-diy-drones-attacks-russian-military-base-in-syria.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/11/swarm-of-armed-diy-drones-at...
- Fricken 8y agoThere's a term for when people gravitate to worst case scenarios not because the worst case scenario is likely, but because it is easy to imagine. I forget the term.
- rxhernandez 8y agoI think the term you're looking for is ethical engineering; you probably saw something like it at an ABET accredited university.
- vpribish 8y agono, that would not be the term. Here are some candidates "awfulizing" from Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy https://qz.com/989112/how-to-stop-jumping-to-the-worst-case-scenario-according-to-evolutionary-psychology/ https://qz.com/989112/how-to-stop-jumping-to-the-worst-case-... "Catastrophizing" https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/catastrophizing-always-assuming-the-worse-heres-why-you-should-stop.htm https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/catastrophizing-... "Catastrophic Thinking" https://psychcentral.com/blog/catastrophic-thinking-when-your-mind-clings-to-worst-case-scenarios/ https://psychcentral.com/blog/catastrophic-thinking-when-you...
- Jach 8y agoI can't think of any other term than worst-case thinking, and this post by Schneier: http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/12/schneier.worst.case.thinking/ http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/12/schneier.worst.case.th... There's more going on than just that though. It's like we've collectively forgotten that technology is double-edged. Maybe things like Black Mirror that people are referencing a lot (I haven't watched any of it so someone can correct me) only focus on one edge and that leads to things like availability bias. If popular media drives a lot of the heuristic when thinking about technology it's perhaps no wonder when not much of it is uplifting.
- StavrosK 8y agoAvailability heuristic?
- 8y ago
- IncRnd 8y agoThis doesn't seem to have any hallmarks of being useful to a military. It's just a mobile device, but there is no recovery from falling over. It also appears very fragile. Drones are cheaper and don't suffer from the same issues. Maybe if this were self-righting or was like a cheap RC that could maneuver upside-down it would have more value. This actually seems to have less utility than many other items, other than pretending to be a dog.
- ImSkeptical 8y agoI believe in some videos they show it using the arm to get itself standing upright again.
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoEvocative of the opening scene of William Gibson's _Count Zero_[1] "They set a Slamhound on Turner's trail in New Delhi, slotted it to his pheromones and the color of his hair. It caught up with him on a street called Chandni Chauk and came scrambling for his rented BMW through a forest of bare brown legs and pedicab tires. Its core was a kilogram of recrystallized hexogene and flaked TNT. " 1: http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/books/zero.asp http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/books/zero.asp
- gagege 8y agoThere is also a "mechanical hound" that chases Montag in Fahrenheit 451 and a similar killer cyborg guard dog creature in Snow Crash. Let's get some good fiction with optimistic views of robot animals, mmkay writers? ;)
- fixermark 8y agoThat'd actually be the "rat thing" guard dog in Snow Crash. ;) I can't remember the exact quote, but when someone comments on how horrible it is to cyberize a dog, its creator says something to the effect of "People keep saying that, but nobody asks the dog." Jump-cut to a couple pages from the point of view of the dog, which (relative to its past life on the street) is incredibly happy with its new function.
- lbenes 8y agoI can just as easily mount a weapon to my car and drive around killing people. How is this any different?
- erw1 8y agoNone, until you equip the dog with an AI that decides on its own when to kill people. I am pretty sure this is what the OP meant.
- lbenes 8y agoHackers like George Hotz can and have decided to equip their cars with AI.[1] Again, how is this any different? [1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/7/15933554/george-hotz-hacking-self-driving-cars-comma-ai https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/7/15933554/george-hotz-hacki... People are hacking on everything from micro-drones to full sized cars. Why single out this platform? Explosive on drones or automated weapons on cars could all be misused.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y agoIn this context "People are hacking everything" is not entirely reassuring.
- erw1 8y agoYou really have no problem with a George Hotz purchasing a bot, soldering guns to it, installing some form of AI that controls the trigger, and then letting it loose into the world? Seems a bit irresponsible. But to answer you questions about the legality all this - I don't know. Tesla and Uber are putting autopilots in their cars. Is that legal? Apparently, it is. Yet, those autopilots are already killing people. So expect a regulatory backlash, once enough people die. I hope it won't take a massacre perpetrated by a buggy AI with a gun to get us there.
- JoeDaDude 8y agoSomething like this was weaponized - back in World War II - with mixed results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog
- fixermark 8y agoPossibly ironically, one of the reasons BD is looking for consumer-sale alternatives is that it specifically didn't meet the bar for military tech. The Big Dog project started as an idea for a field heavy-pack machine to offload some of the weight marines deep-inserted into a theater need to carry. It failed to meet either the noise limitation or power demand needs for that use-case. Turns out for military applications, "Just send some trained dudes with guns" is a lot easier, still, than ground-based drones. Air drones are, of course, a whole different kettle of missiles<delete>fish.
- gandreani 8y agoThis seems like the most plausible theory to me. Even _if_ one day these robots can handle a lot of manual tasks, they won't have big enough batteries to last for more than a couple of hours unplugged
- throwaway84742 8y agoA slightly larger version of Sand Flea seems like a better fit. Disposable, can be deployed relatively cheaply in large quantities, with good camo nearly invisible on the ground, can scale obstacles by jumping. Could be made to carry a fragmentation payload and/or spy gear. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6b4ZZQkcNEo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6b4ZZQkcNEo
- vpribish 8y agothis is the top comment?! the most active discussion thread? Somehow dystopian handwringing and cheap, shallow, commentary is so much more interesting than progress, technology, and business to the audience here (of all places). get a grip. gossip elsewhere. </smh>
- thisacctforreal 8y agoI don't think technology for the sake of technology is a good reason to build it. Advancing technology is interesting to work on, but deploying it in useful ways to solve problems is the part nobody wants or knows how to do. There's more to be done with what we have now.
- vpribish 8y agoThat's a pretty pessimistic world-view you have there. How about science for the sake of science? or art for art's sake? Develop new capabilities and see what people can do with it - it's hubris to think that you can develop the future in a planned direction and be right. And as to not moving on until you've done everything with what you already have - that's silly. I mean, people are still doing novel stuff with pottery - I suppose we have to wait for your approval to move on to, like, bronze?
- trumped 8y agoHave you seen the Slaughterbots video? They seem potentially more dangerous and the hardware is much simpler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw
- fredley 8y agoIf you're scared by this robotic dog, don't start thinking about quad-copter style drones too hard!