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By definition no form of punishment deters crimes of impulse. When a person is enraged or otherwise blinded to rational thought the consequences of said action

by sykh 8y ago

By definition no form of punishment deters crimes of impulse. When a person is enraged or otherwise blinded to rational thought the consequences of said action don’t come into play.

michaelt 8y ago
There are different degrees of impulse. A spouse who kills after finds their partner in bed with someone else is what is traditionally called a 'crime of passion'. Maybe they would have committed that crime even if a policeman was looking over their shoulder. A person who pockets a cell phone left unattended in a bar may be an equally spur-of-the-moment decision - but we wouldn't consider it a crime of passion. If a policeman was looking over their shoulder, they'd have resisted the impulse. If people aren't being deterred from the second type of crime, we've got to ask whether the chance of being caught is too low, whether the punishment is too small, or whether the person isn't being rational about the expectation of punishment. Which probably varies from one crime to another.
- sykh 8y ago
  Definitely there gray areas as you pointed out. My goal is to dissuade one from thinking that excessive punishment for crimes necessarily leads to less crime. It certainly dissuades some people but not everyone.
  - michaelt 8y ago
    Oh, absolutely. People have been given 20+ year sentences for sub-$30 shoplifting [1,2,3] which is inexplicable if you think huge punishments will eliminate crime. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 [2] https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-faces-20-years-to-life-for-candy-bar-theft https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-fac... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual...
pgeorgi 8y ago
If, for stealing, you need a hand, crime is deterred after two instances of punishment for each criminal.
- sykh 8y ago
  Then you’ve decreased the recidivism rate but have you decreased the crime rate? Does living in a society that cruel lead to unintended consequences? Perhaps such a society leads to an increase in callousness and desperation thereby increasing the crime rate. North Korea famously has harsh punishments for crimes but its overall incarceration rate does not seem to be decreasing.
  - v_lisivka 8y ago
    Practice shows that yes, punishment decreases crime rate. Without punishments, North Korea will collapse in hours. Are these rules and punishments are good for people of North Korea? I don't think so. Will I obey law, when I will be in North Korea, even if I think that it is wrong? Of course.
    - sykh 8y ago
      Without punishment we get societal collapse. This is very different than saying increasing punishments, from their current form, would decrease crime. In other words, at the current level of punishment, what is the marginal effect of an increase in punishment on crime rates.

by sykh 8y ago

By definition no form of punishment deters crimes of impulse. When a person is enraged or otherwise blinded to rational thought the consequences of said action don’t come into play.

michaelt 8y ago

There are different degrees of impulse. A spouse who kills after finds their partner in bed with someone else is what is traditionally called a 'crime of passion'. Maybe they would have committed that crime even if a policeman was looking over their shoulder. A person who pockets a cell phone left unattended in a bar may be an equally spur-of-the-moment decision - but we wouldn't consider it a crime of passion. If a policeman was looking over their shoulder, they'd have resisted the impulse. If people aren't being deterred from the second type of crime, we've got to ask whether the chance of being caught is too low, whether the punishment is too small, or whether the person isn't being rational about the expectation of punishment. Which probably varies from one crime to another.

sykh 8y ago
Definitely there gray areas as you pointed out. My goal is to dissuade one from thinking that excessive punishment for crimes necessarily leads to less crime. It certainly dissuades some people but not everyone.
- michaelt 8y ago
  Oh, absolutely. People have been given 20+ year sentences for sub-$30 shoplifting [1,2,3] which is inexplicable if you think huge punishments will eliminate crime. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 [2] https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-faces-20-years-to-life-for-candy-bar-theft https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-fac... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual...

pgeorgi 8y ago

If, for stealing, you need a hand, crime is deterred after two instances of punishment for each criminal.

sykh 8y ago
Then you’ve decreased the recidivism rate but have you decreased the crime rate? Does living in a society that cruel lead to unintended consequences? Perhaps such a society leads to an increase in callousness and desperation thereby increasing the crime rate. North Korea famously has harsh punishments for crimes but its overall incarceration rate does not seem to be decreasing.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  Practice shows that yes, punishment decreases crime rate. Without punishments, North Korea will collapse in hours. Are these rules and punishments are good for people of North Korea? I don't think so. Will I obey law, when I will be in North Korea, even if I think that it is wrong? Of course.
  - sykh 8y ago
    Without punishment we get societal collapse. This is very different than saying increasing punishments, from their current form, would decrease crime. In other words, at the current level of punishment, what is the marginal effect of an increase in punishment on crime rates.