2 ms·

To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? What good does that do anyone? How does t

by mabbo 8y ago

To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? What good does that do anyone? How does that make a net-improvement to the world? How does that "payment" work, exactly? The victims' right to sadism should not trump society's right to reduced crime in the future. What we do to prisoners today increases recividism, increases crime.

v_lisivka 8y ago
RTFM[1]. Justice is not a vendetta. [1]: http://justiceharvard.org/justicecourse/ http://justiceharvard.org/justicecourse/
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  "revenge: the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." The idea that a victim would feel better by knowing that the perpetrator is suffering is exactly revenge by proxy.
- mabbo 8y ago
  Listen, listen, forget this entire topic for a moment and let me just say: thank you for linking me to those lectures. You just gave my brain the candy it's been craving lately in abundance that may even be too much.
V-2 8y ago
> To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? Nothing like the good, old reductio ad absurdum. Two can play that game, but it prevents any meaningful discussion.
- mabbo 8y ago
  > reductio ad absurdium Let me simplify it then, with no logical fallacy: If harming those who commit crimes is a good thing, why not do it more? Why not make it worse? And who gets to decide how much is enough?
  - V-2 8y ago
    > If harming those who commit crimes is a good thing, why not do it more? Because proportion is a good thing, too - and is pivotal for the whole concept of justice. > And who gets to decide how much is enough? The same instance that decides what is and what is not a crime. Ultimately: society, in one way or another. "Implementation details" depend on the era and the civilization.
- sls 8y ago
  The problem is that a lot of what happens in American prisons really is absurd, Kafkaesque, sadism apparently for its own sake, and yet this hasn't actually led to the reductio. When we know that other approaches are better for society in that they lead to less recidivism, and are also less painful for the criminals, and yet continue to push in the opposite direction, it's reasonable to ask if there are any limits to our appetite for inflicting pain. If we can't even ask, then imo that is what prevents the meaningful discussion.
jacquesm 8y ago
> To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bear_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bear_(Black_Mirror)

by mabbo 8y ago

v_lisivka 8y ago

RTFM[1]. Justice is not a vendetta. [1]: http://justiceharvard.org/justicecourse/ http://justiceharvard.org/justicecourse/

eeZah7Ux 8y ago
"revenge: the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." The idea that a victim would feel better by knowing that the perpetrator is suffering is exactly revenge by proxy.
mabbo 8y ago
Listen, listen, forget this entire topic for a moment and let me just say: thank you for linking me to those lectures. You just gave my brain the candy it's been craving lately in abundance that may even be too much.

V-2 8y ago

> To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? Nothing like the good, old reductio ad absurdum. Two can play that game, but it prevents any meaningful discussion.

mabbo 8y ago
> reductio ad absurdium Let me simplify it then, with no logical fallacy: If harming those who commit crimes is a good thing, why not do it more? Why not make it worse? And who gets to decide how much is enough?
- V-2 8y ago
  > If harming those who commit crimes is a good thing, why not do it more? Because proportion is a good thing, too - and is pivotal for the whole concept of justice. > And who gets to decide how much is enough? The same instance that decides what is and what is not a crime. Ultimately: society, in one way or another. "Implementation details" depend on the era and the civilization.
sls 8y ago
The problem is that a lot of what happens in American prisons really is absurd, Kafkaesque, sadism apparently for its own sake, and yet this hasn't actually led to the reductio. When we know that other approaches are better for society in that they lead to less recidivism, and are also less painful for the criminals, and yet continue to push in the opposite direction, it's reasonable to ask if there are any limits to our appetite for inflicting pain. If we can't even ask, then imo that is what prevents the meaningful discussion.

jacquesm 8y ago

> To what end? Should we waterboard them every day? Should we implant them with pain devices that make their life hell? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bear_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bear_(Black_Mirror)