5 ms·

On the note of rehabilitation, do you (or anyone here) know of any good studies comparing various methods of rehabilitation? My buddy firmly believes that the

On the note of rehabilitation, do you (or anyone here) know of any good studies comparing various methods of rehabilitation? My buddy firmly believes that the system is broken, just like myself. Yet, he believes it's broken by being too lax on criminals. He thinks we should be more like his home country, where "They leave their doors unlocked at night because if you steal, you lose a hand". While I disagree with him, I'm not actually aware of facts on this. I know some countries have great success with rehabilitation methods, but what about more "harsh" countries? Is it compared often?

sykh 8y ago
Your buddy has a rather simplistic view of crime. Much crime is done without thinking through the consequences. They are acts of impulse. Fear of punishment does not help in deterring such crimes. No matter what the punishment is crimes of impulse will be done. Other factors need to be addressed at a societal level to combat impulse crimes.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  But lack of hand(s) helps to deter crime, isn't? Jail is just modern version of that practice: hands are not cut, but whole body is jailed (temporary).
  - sykh 8y ago
    By definition no form of punishment deters crimes of impulse. When a person is enraged or otherwise blinded to rational thought the consequences of said action don’t come into play.
    - michaelt 8y ago
      There are different degrees of impulse. A spouse who kills after finds their partner in bed with someone else is what is traditionally called a 'crime of passion'. Maybe they would have committed that crime even if a policeman was looking over their shoulder. A person who pockets a cell phone left unattended in a bar may be an equally spur-of-the-moment decision - but we wouldn't consider it a crime of passion. If a policeman was looking over their shoulder, they'd have resisted the impulse. If people aren't being deterred from the second type of crime, we've got to ask whether the chance of being caught is too low, whether the punishment is too small, or whether the person isn't being rational about the expectation of punishment. Which probably varies from one crime to another.
      - sykh 8y ago
        Definitely there gray areas as you pointed out. My goal is to dissuade one from thinking that excessive punishment for crimes necessarily leads to less crime. It certainly dissuades some people but not everyone.
        michaelt 8y ago
        Oh, absolutely. People have been given 20+ year sentences for sub-$30 shoplifting [1,2,3] which is inexplicable if you think huge punishments will eliminate crime. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 [2] https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-faces-20-years-to-life-for-candy-bar-theft https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-fac... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual...
    - pgeorgi 8y ago
      If, for stealing, you need a hand, crime is deterred after two instances of punishment for each criminal.
      - sykh 8y ago
        Then you’ve decreased the recidivism rate but have you decreased the crime rate? Does living in a society that cruel lead to unintended consequences? Perhaps such a society leads to an increase in callousness and desperation thereby increasing the crime rate. North Korea famously has harsh punishments for crimes but its overall incarceration rate does not seem to be decreasing.
        v_lisivka 8y ago
        Practice shows that yes, punishment decreases crime rate. Without punishments, North Korea will collapse in hours. Are these rules and punishments are good for people of North Korea? I don't think so. Will I obey law, when I will be in North Korea, even if I think that it is wrong? Of course.
        sykh 8y ago
        Without punishment we get societal collapse. This is very different than saying increasing punishments, from their current form, would decrease crime. In other words, at the current level of punishment, what is the marginal effect of an increase in punishment on crime rates.
  - facetube 8y ago
    Actual federal and state-level data shows that increased penalties alone do little to reduce crime rates.
    - v_lisivka 8y ago
      Maybe because free food & shelter alone is not a penalty for many but a vacation.
      - sykh 8y ago
        I’ve worked at a maximum security state prison. It is not a vacation there for any but a small number of people.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>but what about more "harsh" countries? Is it compared often? In my non-expert mostly Nth hand (where n>=2) observation countries where everyone steps in line out of fear are generally better at getting people to step in line when someone's looking but when nobody's looking or people think they can get away with it there's less rule following Treat people like idiots and they will I'd rather have to lock my doors at night and take other action to insulate myself from other's poor decisions and personal freedom to make my own decisions than live in an authoritarian society where nobody makes the "wrong" decisions because of the reliability and harshness of law enforcement.
toothbrush 8y ago
I just stumbled across a reference to a study about recidivism in Massachusetts last century while reading "Against Empathy" by Paul Bloom, perhaps it'll interest you. I'm much too lazy to type out the entire quote, but the author references the case of Willie Horton, convicted murderer, who was let out on furlough, who went on to reoffend. This caused outrage and the book doesn't go into more detail on whether the furlough program was suspended, but the author does reference a study at the time affirming that: > the program may have reduced the likelihood of such incidents. A report at the time found that the recidivism rate in Massachusetts had dropped in the fifteen years after the program was introduced and that convicts who were furloughed were less likely to go on to commit a crime than those who were not. in Paul Bloom, Against Empathy (2016), chapter 1, pp. 34–35. See also: Massachusetts Department of Correction, "The Massachusetts Furlough Program", May 1987, https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/MADOC/Furloughpositionpaper.pdf https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/MADOC/Furloughposition... This example is used in the context of a chapter where it is posited that rationally, we might best continue the net-positive furlough program, whereas our empathy with the victims might lead us to abolish it after a statistical outlier causes atrocities to happen. I'll avoid commenting further on the book as i haven't yet read it completely. Other than that very specific reference off the top of my head, i'd recommend looking at anything published about the Norwegian justice system. I believe it is quite progressive and mainly focussed on rehabilitation instead of punishment.

sykh 8y ago

Your buddy has a rather simplistic view of crime. Much crime is done without thinking through the consequences. They are acts of impulse. Fear of punishment does not help in deterring such crimes. No matter what the punishment is crimes of impulse will be done. Other factors need to be addressed at a societal level to combat impulse crimes.

v_lisivka 8y ago
But lack of hand(s) helps to deter crime, isn't? Jail is just modern version of that practice: hands are not cut, but whole body is jailed (temporary).
- sykh 8y ago
  By definition no form of punishment deters crimes of impulse. When a person is enraged or otherwise blinded to rational thought the consequences of said action don’t come into play.
  - michaelt 8y ago
    There are different degrees of impulse. A spouse who kills after finds their partner in bed with someone else is what is traditionally called a 'crime of passion'. Maybe they would have committed that crime even if a policeman was looking over their shoulder. A person who pockets a cell phone left unattended in a bar may be an equally spur-of-the-moment decision - but we wouldn't consider it a crime of passion. If a policeman was looking over their shoulder, they'd have resisted the impulse. If people aren't being deterred from the second type of crime, we've got to ask whether the chance of being caught is too low, whether the punishment is too small, or whether the person isn't being rational about the expectation of punishment. Which probably varies from one crime to another.
    - sykh 8y ago
      Definitely there gray areas as you pointed out. My goal is to dissuade one from thinking that excessive punishment for crimes necessarily leads to less crime. It certainly dissuades some people but not everyone.
      - michaelt 8y ago
        Oh, absolutely. People have been given 20+ year sentences for sub-$30 shoplifting [1,2,3] which is inexplicable if you think huge punishments will eliminate crime. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/19/local/me-12244 [2] https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-faces-20-years-to-life-for-candy-bar-theft https://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473004950/new-orleans-man-fac... [3] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual...
  - pgeorgi 8y ago
    If, for stealing, you need a hand, crime is deterred after two instances of punishment for each criminal.
    - sykh 8y ago
      Then you’ve decreased the recidivism rate but have you decreased the crime rate? Does living in a society that cruel lead to unintended consequences? Perhaps such a society leads to an increase in callousness and desperation thereby increasing the crime rate. North Korea famously has harsh punishments for crimes but its overall incarceration rate does not seem to be decreasing.
      - v_lisivka 8y ago
        Practice shows that yes, punishment decreases crime rate. Without punishments, North Korea will collapse in hours. Are these rules and punishments are good for people of North Korea? I don't think so. Will I obey law, when I will be in North Korea, even if I think that it is wrong? Of course.
        sykh 8y ago
        Without punishment we get societal collapse. This is very different than saying increasing punishments, from their current form, would decrease crime. In other words, at the current level of punishment, what is the marginal effect of an increase in punishment on crime rates.
- facetube 8y ago
  Actual federal and state-level data shows that increased penalties alone do little to reduce crime rates.
  - v_lisivka 8y ago
    Maybe because free food & shelter alone is not a penalty for many but a vacation.
    - sykh 8y ago
      I’ve worked at a maximum security state prison. It is not a vacation there for any but a small number of people.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>but what about more "harsh" countries? Is it compared often? In my non-expert mostly Nth hand (where n>=2) observation countries where everyone steps in line out of fear are generally better at getting people to step in line when someone's looking but when nobody's looking or people think they can get away with it there's less rule following Treat people like idiots and they will I'd rather have to lock my doors at night and take other action to insulate myself from other's poor decisions and personal freedom to make my own decisions than live in an authoritarian society where nobody makes the "wrong" decisions because of the reliability and harshness of law enforcement.

toothbrush 8y ago

I just stumbled across a reference to a study about recidivism in Massachusetts last century while reading "Against Empathy" by Paul Bloom, perhaps it'll interest you. I'm much too lazy to type out the entire quote, but the author references the case of Willie Horton, convicted murderer, who was let out on furlough, who went on to reoffend. This caused outrage and the book doesn't go into more detail on whether the furlough program was suspended, but the author does reference a study at the time affirming that: > the program may have reduced the likelihood of such incidents. A report at the time found that the recidivism rate in Massachusetts had dropped in the fifteen years after the program was introduced and that convicts who were furloughed were less likely to go on to commit a crime than those who were not. in Paul Bloom, Against Empathy (2016), chapter 1, pp. 34–35. See also: Massachusetts Department of Correction, "The Massachusetts Furlough Program", May 1987, https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/MADOC/Furloughpositionpaper.pdf https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/MADOC/Furloughposition... This example is used in the context of a chapter where it is posited that rationally, we might best continue the net-positive furlough program, whereas our empathy with the victims might lead us to abolish it after a statistical outlier causes atrocities to happen. I'll avoid commenting further on the book as i haven't yet read it completely. Other than that very specific reference off the top of my head, i'd recommend looking at anything published about the Norwegian justice system. I believe it is quite progressive and mainly focussed on rehabilitation instead of punishment.