5 ms·

The Academic Bubble

18 points by Watermelon 16y ago

alttab 16y ago
Regardless of what school you go to, the education gained rests on the shoulders of the student and their engagement levels in their own learning. Education has less impact these days because kids increaswingly expect to be taught, not to learn. Laziness and the expecttation of employability is just as much the problem as the university tuition rates.
- barnaby 16y ago
  Every generation has been lazier than the last since the days of Plato, and we've not degenerated into sloths yet. Skyrocketing tuition rates in an oversaturated educational-services market are a new problem, one that will cause an economic bubble in academia. I wouldn't worry about listless youth, I would worry instead on the absolutely horrible investments they're making in education.
Emore 16y ago
Oh. Another "the next bubble is in academe" post. How interesting. It even has the same graph as all others. Fascinating. Excuse my completely non-constructive comment, but am I the only one who thinks this topic has been dissected enough?
- yequalsx 16y ago
  It is annoying seeing these posts. However, perhaps there is a great opportunity for hackers in this market. I've created a bunch of my own videos (like Khanacademy but better) and have been teaching online classes for 5 years at a community college. My experience is that roughly 30% of the students pass my class without any interaction from me. They just need to be pointed in the right direction and need to know in what order the topics should be covered. This fact, coupled with the fact that all elearning websites suck make for an opportunity. I don't know enough about programming to pull off my ideas on what can be done. There are inefficiences in the market but not as much as articles about academe being the next bubble suggest.
  - piguy314 16y ago
    The biggest barrier to entry in higher education has nothing to do with the context of the education or course material, it's accreditation. In fact it's so hard and expensive to become accredited that most education entrepreneurs just BUY accreditation by purchasing a failing school. Until we address the high barriers to entry, highly entrenched players, and government support of the education industry I doubt any innovation will gain significant traction outside of skills training and tutoring.
- al3x 16y ago
  It may be repetitive, but so were the many books and articles about that recent stock market crashes and housing crises. These things matter to a lot of regular people, and by extension they should matter to entrepreneurs. There's opportunity here.
- nhebb 16y ago
  I think in certain circles it has been dissected enough, but I doubt the message has gotten out to the public at large. It's still a hot button issue for me, at least. When I was in 7th grade, my English teacher had us read Macbeth, Northwest Passage, The Last of the Mohicans, The Red Badge of Courage, and other notable works. We discussed them in detail and wrote essays ad nauseum. It was hard, but we were the better for it. Last year, in my son's Literature class (note; it's not English anymore - it's Literature), they read a smattering of short stories from a brightly illustrated textbook and his sole "book report" was to make a pop-up book from his chosen novel "Percy Jackson and The Last Olympian" (now a major motion picture!). This was typical of many of his classes - plenty of busy work, but thin on substance. His middle school ranks very well by state standards, but it's just not a solid education, in my opinion. This isn't a generational issue, either. Kids' minds are as pliable now as they were in previous generations, but I don't think the schools push them enough on the right things.
- rubashov 16y ago
  It's a huge issue that the vast majority of people remain delusional about. It bears repeating. Did you complain about prescient analyses of the housing bubble, too? "Bubble" might not be a good choice of term for this case because bubbles pop with some dramatic short run consequences. The only way that happens is if the student loan machine suddenly breaks down, and in that case the driving issue will be a broad credit crisis, not the bursting of the education bubble. More realistically diplomas just start "trading" lower and lower over time, as more people and employers simply don't care.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  The blog chatter leading up to the housing crisis was exactly the same. The fact that people are just starting to talk about this within the last year means it will be another 5-7 years before anything happens.
COP 16y ago
Maybe it is time for an educational reform: http://www.actonmba.org http://www.actonmba.org http://kaospilot.dk http://kaospilot.dk http://www.knowmads.nl http://www.knowmads.nl Epistemological mastery just leave us knowing. A lot of time we know how to do something, but we just don't do it. Perhaps it is time to start ontological mastery http://ssrn.com/abstract=1392406 http://ssrn.com/abstract=1392406
ahoyhere 16y ago
Did nobody notice the other articles linked at the bottom of this one? For example: "Black Children Do Not Need a Western-style Education" I, for one, would like to see a little bit more criticism of things being posted to HN, and their sources. Because once people know the HN push-button issues, unquestioning readers can be easily lured down the path to thinking and believing very nasty things. Despite what the 'logical' HN cannon says, an author's background and intent actually matter very much. It may be popular on HN to assume that only facts matter, but I invite you to read the following piece to see how "facts" (real things that really happened) can be skewered by intent: http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodiversity/black-children-do-not-need-a-western-style-education/ http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodive...
- motters 16y ago
  Indeed, it seems that whoever is running this site is willing to entertain or provide a platform for some highly toxic beliefs (i.e. racism).
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    Yes, to put it as inanely as possible. More importantly, they're willing to pander to certain "safe" beliefs in order to lure people in, by expressing things in a way that appeals to would-be intellectuals, using their terminology, and their commonplaces, to persuade them of not only highly toxic but fallacious conclusions.
    - motters 16y ago
      It might be an idea to data mine submissions to HN to try to uncover if there are any special interest or extremist groups trying to gain leverage in this way by posting articles with relatively plausible titles.
      - ahoyhere 16y ago
        Note: I don't literally mean that the author sat down to lure HN-ites in. Let's not flatter ourselves. My point is that extremists in one area also hold non-extremist beliefs in other areas. That can lull you into a false sense of sharing an identity with them. And that, according to all kinds of psychological research, can end up with you conforming to their other ideals as well -- if you believe they go part and parcel together, you will, on some level, strive for consistency. That's why you have to be aware of who's saying what, and why, and what you read, and how you feel about it.
T-R 16y ago
In paragraph 2 he seems to imply that the curriculum isn't broad enough, lamenting the loss of "useless" classes, but then in paragraph 4 he seems to claim it's too broad and that new classes are useless, as evidenced from his claim that no one is making money off of Statistics or Machine Learning, and his implication that someone who didn't start their own company would have been better off as a police officer. He seems to imply that perhaps grading is not as strict as it used to be, referring to some higher education as "virtuous slacking", but doesn't provide any supporting information to make such a claim. He calls higher education a status symbol, referencing the increasing prices, mentioning that many take out loans for higher education, briefly going out of his way to mention government. He reinforces with a claim that people go to college because others do, rather than because they've simultaneously converged on the idea that it's a good investment. He doesn't provide any evidence that higher education is actually viewed as a status symbol. More significantly, though, the author doesn't propose or imply any solution for the system as a whole, or even one of his pain points. The article is vacuous and unfocused. What I've learned from this article: The author doesn't like the current state of higher education, and his mother had to walk uphill both ways to get to school.
gamble 16y ago
It's interesting how many stories appear on HN claiming that too many people have college degrees, when a historically low proportion of Americans have degrees in comparison to other nations. The proportion of Americans with degrees - around 25% - hasn't changed since the 1970s. Back then, that was the highest proportion in the world. However, since the '70s other countries began taking post-secondary education seriously. There are at least ten countries with a higher proportion of college grads. If too many people have degrees in the US, then you'd expect graduates in those countries to be despondent. Heck, Canada is over 40%. The country should be in open revolt if things are really that bad.

18 points by Watermelon 16y ago

Regardless of what school you go to, the education gained rests on the shoulders of the student and their engagement levels in their own learning. Education has less impact these days because kids increaswingly expect to be taught, not to learn. Laziness and the expecttation of employability is just as much the problem as the university tuition rates.

barnaby 16y ago
Every generation has been lazier than the last since the days of Plato, and we've not degenerated into sloths yet. Skyrocketing tuition rates in an oversaturated educational-services market are a new problem, one that will cause an economic bubble in academia. I wouldn't worry about listless youth, I would worry instead on the absolutely horrible investments they're making in education.

Emore 16y ago

Oh. Another "the next bubble is in academe" post. How interesting. It even has the same graph as all others. Fascinating. Excuse my completely non-constructive comment, but am I the only one who thinks this topic has been dissected enough?

yequalsx 16y ago
It is annoying seeing these posts. However, perhaps there is a great opportunity for hackers in this market. I've created a bunch of my own videos (like Khanacademy but better) and have been teaching online classes for 5 years at a community college. My experience is that roughly 30% of the students pass my class without any interaction from me. They just need to be pointed in the right direction and need to know in what order the topics should be covered. This fact, coupled with the fact that all elearning websites suck make for an opportunity. I don't know enough about programming to pull off my ideas on what can be done. There are inefficiences in the market but not as much as articles about academe being the next bubble suggest.
- piguy314 16y ago
  The biggest barrier to entry in higher education has nothing to do with the context of the education or course material, it's accreditation. In fact it's so hard and expensive to become accredited that most education entrepreneurs just BUY accreditation by purchasing a failing school. Until we address the high barriers to entry, highly entrenched players, and government support of the education industry I doubt any innovation will gain significant traction outside of skills training and tutoring.
al3x 16y ago
It may be repetitive, but so were the many books and articles about that recent stock market crashes and housing crises. These things matter to a lot of regular people, and by extension they should matter to entrepreneurs. There's opportunity here.
nhebb 16y ago
I think in certain circles it has been dissected enough, but I doubt the message has gotten out to the public at large. It's still a hot button issue for me, at least. When I was in 7th grade, my English teacher had us read Macbeth, Northwest Passage, The Last of the Mohicans, The Red Badge of Courage, and other notable works. We discussed them in detail and wrote essays ad nauseum. It was hard, but we were the better for it. Last year, in my son's Literature class (note; it's not English anymore - it's Literature), they read a smattering of short stories from a brightly illustrated textbook and his sole "book report" was to make a pop-up book from his chosen novel "Percy Jackson and The Last Olympian" (now a major motion picture!). This was typical of many of his classes - plenty of busy work, but thin on substance. His middle school ranks very well by state standards, but it's just not a solid education, in my opinion. This isn't a generational issue, either. Kids' minds are as pliable now as they were in previous generations, but I don't think the schools push them enough on the right things.
rubashov 16y ago
It's a huge issue that the vast majority of people remain delusional about. It bears repeating. Did you complain about prescient analyses of the housing bubble, too? "Bubble" might not be a good choice of term for this case because bubbles pop with some dramatic short run consequences. The only way that happens is if the student loan machine suddenly breaks down, and in that case the driving issue will be a broad credit crisis, not the bursting of the education bubble. More realistically diplomas just start "trading" lower and lower over time, as more people and employers simply don't care.
Alex3917 16y ago
The blog chatter leading up to the housing crisis was exactly the same. The fact that people are just starting to talk about this within the last year means it will be another 5-7 years before anything happens.

COP 16y ago

Maybe it is time for an educational reform: http://www.actonmba.org http://www.actonmba.org http://kaospilot.dk http://kaospilot.dk http://www.knowmads.nl http://www.knowmads.nl Epistemological mastery just leave us knowing. A lot of time we know how to do something, but we just don't do it. Perhaps it is time to start ontological mastery http://ssrn.com/abstract=1392406 http://ssrn.com/abstract=1392406

ahoyhere 16y ago

Did nobody notice the other articles linked at the bottom of this one? For example: "Black Children Do Not Need a Western-style Education" I, for one, would like to see a little bit more criticism of things being posted to HN, and their sources. Because once people know the HN push-button issues, unquestioning readers can be easily lured down the path to thinking and believing very nasty things. Despite what the 'logical' HN cannon says, an author's background and intent actually matter very much. It may be popular on HN to assume that only facts matter, but I invite you to read the following piece to see how "facts" (real things that really happened) can be skewered by intent: http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodiversity/black-children-do-not-need-a-western-style-education/ http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodive...

motters 16y ago
Indeed, it seems that whoever is running this site is willing to entertain or provide a platform for some highly toxic beliefs (i.e. racism).
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  Yes, to put it as inanely as possible. More importantly, they're willing to pander to certain "safe" beliefs in order to lure people in, by expressing things in a way that appeals to would-be intellectuals, using their terminology, and their commonplaces, to persuade them of not only highly toxic but fallacious conclusions.
  - motters 16y ago
    It might be an idea to data mine submissions to HN to try to uncover if there are any special interest or extremist groups trying to gain leverage in this way by posting articles with relatively plausible titles.
    - ahoyhere 16y ago
      Note: I don't literally mean that the author sat down to lure HN-ites in. Let's not flatter ourselves. My point is that extremists in one area also hold non-extremist beliefs in other areas. That can lull you into a false sense of sharing an identity with them. And that, according to all kinds of psychological research, can end up with you conforming to their other ideals as well -- if you believe they go part and parcel together, you will, on some level, strive for consistency. That's why you have to be aware of who's saying what, and why, and what you read, and how you feel about it.

T-R 16y ago

In paragraph 2 he seems to imply that the curriculum isn't broad enough, lamenting the loss of "useless" classes, but then in paragraph 4 he seems to claim it's too broad and that new classes are useless, as evidenced from his claim that no one is making money off of Statistics or Machine Learning, and his implication that someone who didn't start their own company would have been better off as a police officer. He seems to imply that perhaps grading is not as strict as it used to be, referring to some higher education as "virtuous slacking", but doesn't provide any supporting information to make such a claim. He calls higher education a status symbol, referencing the increasing prices, mentioning that many take out loans for higher education, briefly going out of his way to mention government. He reinforces with a claim that people go to college because others do, rather than because they've simultaneously converged on the idea that it's a good investment. He doesn't provide any evidence that higher education is actually viewed as a status symbol. More significantly, though, the author doesn't propose or imply any solution for the system as a whole, or even one of his pain points. The article is vacuous and unfocused. What I've learned from this article: The author doesn't like the current state of higher education, and his mother had to walk uphill both ways to get to school.

gamble 16y ago

It's interesting how many stories appear on HN claiming that too many people have college degrees, when a historically low proportion of Americans have degrees in comparison to other nations. The proportion of Americans with degrees - around 25% - hasn't changed since the 1970s. Back then, that was the highest proportion in the world. However, since the '70s other countries began taking post-secondary education seriously. There are at least ten countries with a higher proportion of college grads. If too many people have degrees in the US, then you'd expect graduates in those countries to be despondent. Heck, Canada is over 40%. The country should be in open revolt if things are really that bad.