13 ms·

Australian regulator investigates Google data harvesting from Android phones

274 points by dsr12 8y ago

mike_n 8y ago
Is it not assumed/expected that if you're using android then google has access to all your phone's data/sensors?
- satori99 8y ago
  One would think so. It is, after all, an operating system created by the largest advertising company that has ever existed, and they are not giving it away for altruistic reasons.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  *if you're using android with Google Services
  - askvictor 8y ago
    Not certain why the downvotes; apart from community ROMs and Amazon's Android devices, Samsung has been positioning itself for some time to not be completely reliant on Google for it's phone business - they have an App Store of their own and their own duplicate functionality of many of Google's core services for Android. I wouldn't be surprised if they de-coupled from Google entirely at some point (yes, they'd need to convince developers over to their app store, but they're playing the long game)
    - ReverseCold 8y ago
      I read the Samsung privacy policy, it's honestly not much better. Is there a project to replace all of play services with FOSS/encrypted ones?
      - _bxg1 8y ago
        There is, called MicroG. Although personally I don't use it on my google-less phone because it's a bit messy/early in development. You can make do (as I do) with LineageOS, F-Droid, and APKMirror. The last is run by the AndroidPolice folks and is therefore trustworthy.
      - askvictor 8y ago
        True Samsung's not any better, but diversity is a good thing; if they have an alternative in place then they could much more easily provide competition with Google in this space (after all, Samsung sells hardware and doesn't really need to harvest your data)
- gpm 8y ago
  Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google. Do you expect Apple to listen to your conversations just because you use a mac and it has a microphone? Do you expect Toyota to track you everywhere you go because your car came with a GPS system? Building the system, let alone just making the software, doesn't give you the rights to all the data it produces after you sell it.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    Yet most of the large corporations are taking exactly that view. GDPR can't come soon enough.
  - merb 8y ago
    > Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google. Maybe the phone, but not the software running on it.
    - subroutine 8y ago
      What is the difference? Both the hardware and the software are covered by hundreds of patents, copyright protections, license agreements, end user agreements, etc. The question here is what basic privacies can someone expect when they purchase a phone, and how transparent do companies need to be about what information they are collecting.
      - sjwright 8y ago
        The difference is the essence of ownership. Google/Apple can't physically take away my phone, but they could declare a violation of the terms of service and terminate the software license agreement.
        deleted 8y ago
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        deleted 8y ago
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- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  >> Is it not assumed/expected that if you're using android then google has access to all your phone's data/sensors? Yeah but that doesn't mean that they should snap a photo or turn on the mic in my bedroom. The point is that there are limits. Legal and ethical.
  - gcb0 8y ago
    either they own the data or they don't. you can't go about making extremely granular arbitrary clauses.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      If it's a yes or no /all or none, then they do not own it. They can't.
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
So, my read on it is basically that the claim is that Google's data collection on Android costs users a lot of money in data charges. It's probably a fairly reasonable point to bring up since almost everything could be done on-device if Google didn't have specific interest in people's user data, but it's also very hard to argue that Google doesn't have user permission to do it, assuming EULAs nobody reads or can understand are legal in the given jurisdiction. And of course, this appears to be another front in which Oracle is helping point out the many ways Android is screwing everyone else over, mostly because they're upset about Android screwing them over.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  This might be another situation where GDPR saves the day; Google will need to push updates out to limit their data collection, as well as reveal the full scope of their data collection activities with Android.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    (In the EU) This particular story/investigation appears to be in Australia. Google's only required to limit their tendency to stalk your every waking moment in the EU. While some of the improvements made will probably end up being available globally just because, for instance, improvements to Google Takeout-like work, I doubt Google's going to stop tracking you where it's still legally permissible.
    - x0x0 8y ago
      They may though because of the difficulty of deciding if you are subject to GDPR. ie what if an Aussie moves to the EEU and becomes a resident, bringing an Australian-purchased phone? How long can someone visit the EEU before becoming a resident (I have no idea and suspect the rules may not be crystal clear.)
      - dannyw 8y ago
        If the origin of the traffic is within the EEU, GDPR applies. So the moment you visit the EEU, GDPR applies; irrespective of residency status. The moment you leave the EEU, GDPR no longer applies, even if you are an EU resident.
Proven 8y ago
Bbbut Open Source...
greesil 8y ago
Shouldn't all this data just be uploaded over wifi?
- Fins 8y ago
  Maybe it should, but in my experience Android is perfectly happy to automatically update Play Services and Service for Instant Apps (whatever the hell that is) over the cell network, despite settings being set to manual update on WiFi. Which is a Windows 10 level of obnoxiousness. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were sending stuff over customer's metered connection.
dingo_bat 8y ago
Android is the biggest example of how companies practice bait and switch under the banner of "open source". I's rather have fully proprietary software that respects my privacy than open source software that opens up my private data.
- kelnos 8y ago
  My guess here is that most of the tracking bits are implemented through the Google Play Services app/service, which is fully closed source. This isn't an open vs. closed thing... unless someone would want to make the point that this sort of tracking would be easier to find and verify if the software doing it actually was open source.
  - jcfrei 8y ago
    That's true as far as I know as well. I started removing permissions from the play service applications in Android. I've run into two issues afterwards: Some apps complain (but continue to work) and you can't install new apps from the play store (the store stops working without any warning or error). However I wonder how effective this is - does anybody have any insights to share?
- gcb0 8y ago
  chrome/ium is even worse. google employees revert community features (e.g. hiding/limiting referrer header, essential for adwords revenue) silently with big unrelated commits (the referrer one at least 3 times)
  - dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
    Can I read a bit more about this? In any case, you can still use the --no-referrers option, don't you?
    - gcb0 8y ago
      no, reverted and that setting is no more. for a very long time by the way.
magicalist 8y ago
The title should be the headline > ACCC investigating Oracle research showing Google users Android phone plan data to spy (typo is theirs) And by "investigating" it means Oracle did a presentation stating that if you have location history on it uses data and the commission chairman told News Corp Australia, "my people are looking into it." > That Oracle had come to Australia to do the presentation showed the value of the ACCC inquiry, he said. lol
- superflyguy 8y ago
  It's great, isn't it? I think Oracle just bought Microsoft's unsuccessful "Scroogled" campaign.
patrickg_zill 8y ago
Google is fundamentally dishonest. Example: my phone has both a Wifi and GPS chip. I open Maps and it tells me it can't give me navigation unless I turn on Location Services or whatever, which allows them to use the Wifi to scan for APs or whatever else they do. It's 100% a lie, because any other GPS based navigation system (such as TomTom, Magellan GPS devices) can in fact do this; and they have far less CPU power than my phone does.
- chrisper 8y ago
  As far as I understand is that "Location Services" is a catch all for wifi,gps etc. But if you only want it to use GPS, then change Location Services from High Accuracy to GPS only.
  - dingo_bat 8y ago
    Yes and everytime you open google maps it will bug you. It will say "turn on background wifi scanning if you want to use navigation". You can dismiss it and it still works fine! Because of course it doesn't need background wifi scanning for navigation. Oh and be ready to get nagged every time you open the app. They won't let up.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      I see this sort of thing in software so often I gave it a name: https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-ratchet https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-ratchet There are many more like it but this one is particularly annoying because of the asymmetry between the work they do to get you to consent to something that isn't in your advantage compared to the work you have to do to reverse your decision (which sometimes isn't possible at all!).
      - fourthark 8y ago
        Another example: I open Google Photos to look at a photo album someone sent me, and it tells me it can't function without access to my own photos. Untrue. For a while I could still click no, but then they forbade that. So I gave up and clicked yes, and now they've got all my photos
yuhong 8y ago
https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664 https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664 "One of the reasons I left Google was because "don't be evil" got replaced by "collect and monetize information"" Notice I asked them for more info to help trace back the problems, but received little response. I wonder how for example Larry and Sergey are involved.
- kyrra 8y ago
  Google Play Services provides the location services API to most apps on your phone. https://developer.android.com/training/location/ https://developer.android.com/training/location/
exodust 8y ago
Get ad-blockers and grains of salt ready before clicking on News Limited Daily Tele stories. I find this claim doubtful... > "The Oracle experts say phone owners’ data ends up being consumed even if Google Maps is not in use or aeroplane mode is switched on." It's called "flight mode" on my android, and I highly doubt my data is being used when flight mode is activated. With that said, Google does get pushy and invasive. Maps is annoying how it bugs you to go online and turn location settings on just to see a map. If I already know where I am, and only need to see a map, I shouldn't need to go online. Google have reluctantly allowed "offline maps" in recent times, but in typical Google fashion, the offline maps "expire" after only 30 days.
- cma 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure they are confusing things. When you turn on airplane mode and turn off GPS, Google will log all the wifi access points you come across (which only requires listening on the radio, not sending), and when you turn Airplane mode back off, it will upload that data to Google who can then go back and retroactively track your location based on their access point location database.
  - exodust 8y ago
    You're presenting a hypothetical as fact. The article doesn't mention anything about logging wifi access points, that's just you throwing another theory into the mix. When Google location services is switched off, and your account is set to not track you or record history, there is absolutely not a "gig" of "secret spying" going on in the background. Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and everything set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open settings and switch things off, it's not hard. Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as do Oracle. The Daily Tele can't even write an article title without errors... "research showing Google users Android", bunch of amateurs.
    - titzer 8y ago
      > Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and everything set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open settings and switch things off, it's not hard. Sorry, no. Turning on WiFi is not the same as consenting to be tracked everywhere. Your whole comment is all mixed up. First, you cannot disable Google Location Services. Period. You can turn off location, but you cannot, e.g. use GPS directly without going through Google Play Services. Second, you say the parent's comment was hypothetical, and yet, then you assume it is true and then suggest that using WiFi is consent to some hypothetical practice. > Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as do Oracle. And then you attack the source! Geesh.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mudil 8y ago
Neither Google nor FB should be gathering personal information worse than NSA. Personal information is personal, and free people in a free society should not be followed by multinational corporations. Furthermore, Facebook and Google control close to 85% of the digital ad market. The rest 15% goes to the content creators and to the journalism. If Google and FB were not able to invade everyone's privacy, that would have created a level playing field for national, regional, and specialized media to prosper. But because they know who you are, they can display an ad for you on any platform. If you are from Denver, here's an ad for a Denver event on your mobile game. So who needs journalism if an article in Denver Post is on par to a Candy Crush screen? Who needs quality content on the internet? There is a reason why there is no VC investment in the content whatsoever.
flashman 8y ago
> "The information fed back to Google includes barometric pressure readings so it can work out, for example, which level of a shopping mall you are on." I scoffed, but this is actually a thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/ (It's also useful for weather observations, see the old PressureNET.io site for an opt-in version.) Anyway, my monthly mobile data usage for Google services is 110 MB and that's including the map tiles, Google Play services and Play Store (I have location history disabled). I'd be interested in whether anyone is having a gig of their data used.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- iopuy 8y ago
  A known avenue of data acquisition is to wait until a wifi connections to transmit large amounts of data.
  - askvictor 8y ago
    It is, however, the article states: > The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Then goes on to give a cost breakdown of how much this hypothetical data download is costing Australian's via their mobile data connections.
    - ehsankia 8y ago
      The article does state that, but there's zero evidence backing it. It also doesn't help that said experts are from Oracle, which aren't really the most unbiased source when it comes to Google news.
      - askvictor 8y ago
        Well, that's kind of my point. Yes, you could hypothetically transmit 1 GB/month batched to use wifi, but the article in question is saying it's using your mobile data (to sow FUD). There is no evidence that Google is sending 1GB/month of data over wifi either.
askvictor 8y ago
Here's a the same story via the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australian-regulator-investigates-google-data-harvesting-from-android-phones https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australia... A quote contained within both stories: > The software company Oracle revealed Google could be harvesting a gigabyte of data from Android devices each month Given that my data plan is 1.5 GB/month, I would notice if a gigabyte magically disappeared every month (it doesn't). Hopefully the ACCC has enough skepticism and technical knowledge to see through Oracle's FUD. OTOH what's in it for Oracle here? Purely trying to damage Google's brand? I suppose the media have run with it and it's working.
- lysp 8y ago
  I'd assume that not all that information would require real-time feeding of data back to Google. So quite a lot I'd assume would be buffered and sent back while you're on a wifi connection.
  - askvictor 8y ago
    The article states: > The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Then goes on to give a cost breakdown of how much this hypothetical data download is costing Australian's via their mobile data connections.
    - chris_wot 8y ago
      It's Oracle. You must ask yourself, what's in it for them? And is it actually true?
      - 8note 8y ago
        It's Google. you must ask yourself, what aren't they collecting?
deostroll 8y ago
If this is a real concern, wouldn't android's source show the evidence?
- gcb0 8y ago
  are you spending the time? nobody is. all the players are not the "users" also, most of the claim seems to be for code in the very closed source google play services (wildly guessing from the features involved)
- trendia 8y ago
  It's in Google play services, which is "separate" from Android, but good luck installing your favorite Android apps without it.
- realusername 8y ago
  Most of what you use in Android is closed source, Google apps, blobs, Google Apis, Play Store, Play services...
onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>Given more than 10 million Aussies have an Android phone, if Google had to pay for the data it is said to be siphoning, it would face a bill of between $445 million and $580 million a year. It's obvious that Oracle and Google don't get along. To be generous. So it's brilliant for Oracle to have the state(s) or attorneys do their work for them. Now EU will get involved and (at the least) class action lawyers in USA.
ggm 8y ago
I have two feelings about this. The first is, that if my data usefully supplies information to "the commons" which makes services like maps better for everyone including me, there is a zero-sum win-win here, and I'm ok. The second is, that if there is some private leveraged advantage Google gets, over other people, which dis-equilibriates in the commons, This is not good, and I should be told quite clearly thats the case, and how it works.
- phs318u 8y ago
  > if my data usefully supplies information to "the commons" This could be achieved using an approach like differential privacy[0] which Apple use. [0] https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_O...
  - sharcerer 8y ago
    Fyi, google also uses it. Has been using it before Apple. Even opensourced it so that people could make sure its effectiveness. Also, right now its AI division is doing considerable research in federated learning ( its basically, diff. provacy). But,apple promoted this as if it was their breakthrough. Heard of Ian Goodfellow (the GANfather)? He is one of the geniuses at G researching in this area.
  - cromwellian 8y ago
    Google also uses Differential Privacy, in fact, Chrome was the first consumer app to ship with differential privacy (RAPPOR: https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub42852 https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub42852).
- Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
  Google Maps is not the commons. Google Maps is a proprietary platform for delivering advertising. OpenStreetMap is the commons.
minicoolva 8y ago
I can't access this page now
64kbisalluneed 8y ago
#deletegoogle
bitmapbrother 8y ago
The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Sometimes you need to take off the gloves and get your hands dirty. Google really needs to take Oracle to task for their public smear campaign.
T0k9sy_ 8y ago
In other news...water is wet!
JepZ 8y ago
I don't like the whole 'Google tracks us' thing either, but it seems so hypocritical when the background seems to be the Oracle-Google dispute, as we all know that Oracle isn't really known for being the good company either. But at least the whole privacy topic gets some media coverage that way.
- titzer 8y ago
  Oracle would do better to just publish facts and let other people doing the fighting, IMO. They risk tainting the whole discussion with their radioactivity and I'd prefer it be based on the facts.
Chockster 8y ago
Oracle is also in the business of collecting consumer data for marketing: https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index.html https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index.... > BlueKai also runs the world's largest 3rd party data marketplace to augment a customer's proprietary data with actionable information on more than 700 million profiles.
mdekkers 8y ago
I'm really sick of Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and every other company that uses lies, deceit, ambiguity and general dark patterns to coerce me into parting with the ownership of my systems. Google must be laughing their asses off with all the Facebook scrutiny - I am pretty sure that the profile FB has on users and non-users alike is but a vague precis when compared with the profile Google has on all of us. Microsoft has now started claiming that "Windows is a service" and they can fuck right off. I have lost count on the amount of times my machine rebooted in the middle of the night, despite implementing hack after hack to stop this disgusting behaviour. I paid for my hardware, and I paid for my software - none of these bastards get to decide what part of my data they get to siphon off. They are all at it, like pigs on the trough. I bought a OnePlus 2 years ago, due to the promise that it is lightweight, has no crap pre-installed like an unremovable facebook, or whatever else these fuckers come up with next. Turns out OnePlus is just as happy grabbing your data and silently siphoning this off to some hidden database. I have a new PC on the way, which will be the first time in about 10 years that I'll be going back to a Linux desktop as my main daily driver. My phone is next, I'm looking for a nice feature phone that doesn't send my private information back to these fuckers. Stallman was right.
- Lio 8y ago
  Could I suggest you look at https://puri.sm/products/ https://puri.sm/products/ for both private phone and laptops running Linux. They can't deliver everything that RMS would look for in a laptop or phone yet but they are actively working to remove all binary blobs from their CoreBoot BIOS and to disable the Intel Management Engine. Their OS is already FSF compliant.
  - mdekkers 8y ago
    Thanks for the tip!
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  I am curious why you think that these companies shouldn't be able to use your data because you paid for the software. Just because you paid for a software license doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with said software. I understand why people don't like this but I don't understand what principles people use to decide that it is immoral or should be illegal.
zmmmmm 8y ago
How naive would you have to be to believe Oracle has showed up in the best interests of consumers and is actually being truthful here? Problem is, from the article it actually feels like the ACCC might indeed be that naive.

274 points by dsr12 8y ago

mike_n 8y ago

Is it not assumed/expected that if you're using android then google has access to all your phone's data/sensors?

satori99 8y ago
One would think so. It is, after all, an operating system created by the largest advertising company that has ever existed, and they are not giving it away for altruistic reasons.
_bxg1 8y ago
*if you're using android with Google Services
- askvictor 8y ago
  Not certain why the downvotes; apart from community ROMs and Amazon's Android devices, Samsung has been positioning itself for some time to not be completely reliant on Google for it's phone business - they have an App Store of their own and their own duplicate functionality of many of Google's core services for Android. I wouldn't be surprised if they de-coupled from Google entirely at some point (yes, they'd need to convince developers over to their app store, but they're playing the long game)
  - ReverseCold 8y ago
    I read the Samsung privacy policy, it's honestly not much better. Is there a project to replace all of play services with FOSS/encrypted ones?
    - _bxg1 8y ago
      There is, called MicroG. Although personally I don't use it on my google-less phone because it's a bit messy/early in development. You can make do (as I do) with LineageOS, F-Droid, and APKMirror. The last is run by the AndroidPolice folks and is therefore trustworthy.
    - askvictor 8y ago
      True Samsung's not any better, but diversity is a good thing; if they have an alternative in place then they could much more easily provide competition with Google in this space (after all, Samsung sells hardware and doesn't really need to harvest your data)
gpm 8y ago
Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google. Do you expect Apple to listen to your conversations just because you use a mac and it has a microphone? Do you expect Toyota to track you everywhere you go because your car came with a GPS system? Building the system, let alone just making the software, doesn't give you the rights to all the data it produces after you sell it.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  Yet most of the large corporations are taking exactly that view. GDPR can't come soon enough.
- merb 8y ago
  > Of course it isn't. I own the phone, not Google. Maybe the phone, but not the software running on it.
  - subroutine 8y ago
    What is the difference? Both the hardware and the software are covered by hundreds of patents, copyright protections, license agreements, end user agreements, etc. The question here is what basic privacies can someone expect when they purchase a phone, and how transparent do companies need to be about what information they are collecting.
    - sjwright 8y ago
      The difference is the essence of ownership. Google/Apple can't physically take away my phone, but they could declare a violation of the terms of service and terminate the software license agreement.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
onetimemanytime 8y ago
>> Is it not assumed/expected that if you're using android then google has access to all your phone's data/sensors? Yeah but that doesn't mean that they should snap a photo or turn on the mic in my bedroom. The point is that there are limits. Legal and ethical.
- gcb0 8y ago
  either they own the data or they don't. you can't go about making extremely granular arbitrary clauses.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    If it's a yes or no /all or none, then they do not own it. They can't.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

So, my read on it is basically that the claim is that Google's data collection on Android costs users a lot of money in data charges. It's probably a fairly reasonable point to bring up since almost everything could be done on-device if Google didn't have specific interest in people's user data, but it's also very hard to argue that Google doesn't have user permission to do it, assuming EULAs nobody reads or can understand are legal in the given jurisdiction. And of course, this appears to be another front in which Oracle is helping point out the many ways Android is screwing everyone else over, mostly because they're upset about Android screwing them over.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
This might be another situation where GDPR saves the day; Google will need to push updates out to limit their data collection, as well as reveal the full scope of their data collection activities with Android.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  (In the EU) This particular story/investigation appears to be in Australia. Google's only required to limit their tendency to stalk your every waking moment in the EU. While some of the improvements made will probably end up being available globally just because, for instance, improvements to Google Takeout-like work, I doubt Google's going to stop tracking you where it's still legally permissible.
  - x0x0 8y ago
    They may though because of the difficulty of deciding if you are subject to GDPR. ie what if an Aussie moves to the EEU and becomes a resident, bringing an Australian-purchased phone? How long can someone visit the EEU before becoming a resident (I have no idea and suspect the rules may not be crystal clear.)
    - dannyw 8y ago
      If the origin of the traffic is within the EEU, GDPR applies. So the moment you visit the EEU, GDPR applies; irrespective of residency status. The moment you leave the EEU, GDPR no longer applies, even if you are an EU resident.

Proven 8y ago

Bbbut Open Source...

greesil 8y ago

Shouldn't all this data just be uploaded over wifi?

Fins 8y ago
Maybe it should, but in my experience Android is perfectly happy to automatically update Play Services and Service for Instant Apps (whatever the hell that is) over the cell network, despite settings being set to manual update on WiFi. Which is a Windows 10 level of obnoxiousness. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were sending stuff over customer's metered connection.

dingo_bat 8y ago

Android is the biggest example of how companies practice bait and switch under the banner of "open source". I's rather have fully proprietary software that respects my privacy than open source software that opens up my private data.

kelnos 8y ago
My guess here is that most of the tracking bits are implemented through the Google Play Services app/service, which is fully closed source. This isn't an open vs. closed thing... unless someone would want to make the point that this sort of tracking would be easier to find and verify if the software doing it actually was open source.
- jcfrei 8y ago
  That's true as far as I know as well. I started removing permissions from the play service applications in Android. I've run into two issues afterwards: Some apps complain (but continue to work) and you can't install new apps from the play store (the store stops working without any warning or error). However I wonder how effective this is - does anybody have any insights to share?
gcb0 8y ago
chrome/ium is even worse. google employees revert community features (e.g. hiding/limiting referrer header, essential for adwords revenue) silently with big unrelated commits (the referrer one at least 3 times)
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  Can I read a bit more about this? In any case, you can still use the --no-referrers option, don't you?
  - gcb0 8y ago
    no, reverted and that setting is no more. for a very long time by the way.

magicalist 8y ago

The title should be the headline > ACCC investigating Oracle research showing Google users Android phone plan data to spy (typo is theirs) And by "investigating" it means Oracle did a presentation stating that if you have location history on it uses data and the commission chairman told News Corp Australia, "my people are looking into it." > That Oracle had come to Australia to do the presentation showed the value of the ACCC inquiry, he said. lol

superflyguy 8y ago
It's great, isn't it? I think Oracle just bought Microsoft's unsuccessful "Scroogled" campaign.

patrickg_zill 8y ago

Google is fundamentally dishonest. Example: my phone has both a Wifi and GPS chip. I open Maps and it tells me it can't give me navigation unless I turn on Location Services or whatever, which allows them to use the Wifi to scan for APs or whatever else they do. It's 100% a lie, because any other GPS based navigation system (such as TomTom, Magellan GPS devices) can in fact do this; and they have far less CPU power than my phone does.

chrisper 8y ago
As far as I understand is that "Location Services" is a catch all for wifi,gps etc. But if you only want it to use GPS, then change Location Services from High Accuracy to GPS only.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  Yes and everytime you open google maps it will bug you. It will say "turn on background wifi scanning if you want to use navigation". You can dismiss it and it still works fine! Because of course it doesn't need background wifi scanning for navigation. Oh and be ready to get nagged every time you open the app. They won't let up.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    I see this sort of thing in software so often I gave it a name: https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-ratchet https://jacquesmattheij.com/dark-patterns-the-ratchet There are many more like it but this one is particularly annoying because of the asymmetry between the work they do to get you to consent to something that isn't in your advantage compared to the work you have to do to reverse your decision (which sometimes isn't possible at all!).
    - fourthark 8y ago
      Another example: I open Google Photos to look at a photo album someone sent me, and it tells me it can't function without access to my own photos. Untrue. For a while I could still click no, but then they forbade that. So I gave up and clicked yes, and now they've got all my photos

yuhong 8y ago

https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664 https://twitter.com/berendjanwever/status/775366191078641664 "One of the reasons I left Google was because "don't be evil" got replaced by "collect and monetize information"" Notice I asked them for more info to help trace back the problems, but received little response. I wonder how for example Larry and Sergey are involved.

kyrra 8y ago
Google Play Services provides the location services API to most apps on your phone. https://developer.android.com/training/location/ https://developer.android.com/training/location/

exodust 8y ago

Get ad-blockers and grains of salt ready before clicking on News Limited Daily Tele stories. I find this claim doubtful... > "The Oracle experts say phone owners’ data ends up being consumed even if Google Maps is not in use or aeroplane mode is switched on." It's called "flight mode" on my android, and I highly doubt my data is being used when flight mode is activated. With that said, Google does get pushy and invasive. Maps is annoying how it bugs you to go online and turn location settings on just to see a map. If I already know where I am, and only need to see a map, I shouldn't need to go online. Google have reluctantly allowed "offline maps" in recent times, but in typical Google fashion, the offline maps "expire" after only 30 days.

cma 8y ago
I'm pretty sure they are confusing things. When you turn on airplane mode and turn off GPS, Google will log all the wifi access points you come across (which only requires listening on the radio, not sending), and when you turn Airplane mode back off, it will upload that data to Google who can then go back and retroactively track your location based on their access point location database.
- exodust 8y ago
  You're presenting a hypothetical as fact. The article doesn't mention anything about logging wifi access points, that's just you throwing another theory into the mix. When Google location services is switched off, and your account is set to not track you or record history, there is absolutely not a "gig" of "secret spying" going on in the background. Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and everything set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open settings and switch things off, it's not hard. Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as do Oracle. The Daily Tele can't even write an article title without errors... "research showing Google users Android", bunch of amateurs.
  - titzer 8y ago
    > Nobody forces you to leave wi-fi and mobile data on by default and everything set to default. Don't want to be tracked by Google? Then open settings and switch things off, it's not hard. Sorry, no. Turning on WiFi is not the same as consenting to be tracked everywhere. Your whole comment is all mixed up. First, you cannot disable Google Location Services. Period. You can turn off location, but you cannot, e.g. use GPS directly without going through Google Play Services. Second, you say the parent's comment was hypothetical, and yet, then you assume it is true and then suggest that using WiFi is consent to some hypothetical practice. > Like I said, grain of salt for News Limited articles. They hate Google, as do Oracle. And then you attack the source! Geesh.

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mudil 8y ago

Neither Google nor FB should be gathering personal information worse than NSA. Personal information is personal, and free people in a free society should not be followed by multinational corporations. Furthermore, Facebook and Google control close to 85% of the digital ad market. The rest 15% goes to the content creators and to the journalism. If Google and FB were not able to invade everyone's privacy, that would have created a level playing field for national, regional, and specialized media to prosper. But because they know who you are, they can display an ad for you on any platform. If you are from Denver, here's an ad for a Denver event on your mobile game. So who needs journalism if an article in Denver Post is on par to a Candy Crush screen? Who needs quality content on the internet? There is a reason why there is no VC investment in the content whatsoever.

flashman 8y ago

> "The information fed back to Google includes barometric pressure readings so it can work out, for example, which level of a shopping mall you are on." I scoffed, but this is actually a thing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4431287/ (It's also useful for weather observations, see the old PressureNET.io site for an opt-in version.) Anyway, my monthly mobile data usage for Google services is 110 MB and that's including the map tiles, Google Play services and Play Store (I have location history disabled). I'd be interested in whether anyone is having a gig of their data used.

deleted 8y ago
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iopuy 8y ago
A known avenue of data acquisition is to wait until a wifi connections to transmit large amounts of data.
- askvictor 8y ago
  It is, however, the article states: > The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Then goes on to give a cost breakdown of how much this hypothetical data download is costing Australian's via their mobile data connections.
  - ehsankia 8y ago
    The article does state that, but there's zero evidence backing it. It also doesn't help that said experts are from Oracle, which aren't really the most unbiased source when it comes to Google news.
    - askvictor 8y ago
      Well, that's kind of my point. Yes, you could hypothetically transmit 1 GB/month batched to use wifi, but the article in question is saying it's using your mobile data (to sow FUD). There is no evidence that Google is sending 1GB/month of data over wifi either.

askvictor 8y ago

Here's a the same story via the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australian-regulator-investigates-google-data-harvesting-from-android-phones https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/14/australia... A quote contained within both stories: > The software company Oracle revealed Google could be harvesting a gigabyte of data from Android devices each month Given that my data plan is 1.5 GB/month, I would notice if a gigabyte magically disappeared every month (it doesn't). Hopefully the ACCC has enough skepticism and technical knowledge to see through Oracle's FUD. OTOH what's in it for Oracle here? Purely trying to damage Google's brand? I suppose the media have run with it and it's working.

lysp 8y ago
I'd assume that not all that information would require real-time feeding of data back to Google. So quite a lot I'd assume would be buffered and sent back while you're on a wifi connection.
- askvictor 8y ago
  The article states: > The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Then goes on to give a cost breakdown of how much this hypothetical data download is costing Australian's via their mobile data connections.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    It's Oracle. You must ask yourself, what's in it for them? And is it actually true?
    - 8note 8y ago
      It's Google. you must ask yourself, what aren't they collecting?

deostroll 8y ago

If this is a real concern, wouldn't android's source show the evidence?

gcb0 8y ago
are you spending the time? nobody is. all the players are not the "users" also, most of the claim seems to be for code in the very closed source google play services (wildly guessing from the features involved)
trendia 8y ago
It's in Google play services, which is "separate" from Android, but good luck installing your favorite Android apps without it.
realusername 8y ago
Most of what you use in Android is closed source, Google apps, blobs, Google Apis, Play Store, Play services...

onetimemanytime 8y ago

>>Given more than 10 million Aussies have an Android phone, if Google had to pay for the data it is said to be siphoning, it would face a bill of between $445 million and $580 million a year. It's obvious that Oracle and Google don't get along. To be generous. So it's brilliant for Oracle to have the state(s) or attorneys do their work for them. Now EU will get involved and (at the least) class action lawyers in USA.

ggm 8y ago

I have two feelings about this. The first is, that if my data usefully supplies information to "the commons" which makes services like maps better for everyone including me, there is a zero-sum win-win here, and I'm ok. The second is, that if there is some private leveraged advantage Google gets, over other people, which dis-equilibriates in the commons, This is not good, and I should be told quite clearly thats the case, and how it works.

phs318u 8y ago
> if my data usefully supplies information to "the commons" This could be achieved using an approach like differential privacy[0] which Apple use. [0] https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_O...
- sharcerer 8y ago
  Fyi, google also uses it. Has been using it before Apple. Even opensourced it so that people could make sure its effectiveness. Also, right now its AI division is doing considerable research in federated learning ( its basically, diff. provacy). But,apple promoted this as if it was their breakthrough. Heard of Ian Goodfellow (the GANfather)? He is one of the geniuses at G researching in this area.
- cromwellian 8y ago
  Google also uses Differential Privacy, in fact, Chrome was the first consumer app to ship with differential privacy (RAPPOR: https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub42852 https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub42852).
Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
Google Maps is not the commons. Google Maps is a proprietary platform for delivering advertising. OpenStreetMap is the commons.

minicoolva 8y ago

I can't access this page now

64kbisalluneed 8y ago

#deletegoogle

bitmapbrother 8y ago

The experts, from computer and software corporation Oracle, claim Google is draining roughly one gigabyte of mobile data monthly from Android phone users’ accounts as it snoops in the background, collecting information to help advertisers. Sometimes you need to take off the gloves and get your hands dirty. Google really needs to take Oracle to task for their public smear campaign.

T0k9sy_ 8y ago

In other news...water is wet!

JepZ 8y ago

I don't like the whole 'Google tracks us' thing either, but it seems so hypocritical when the background seems to be the Oracle-Google dispute, as we all know that Oracle isn't really known for being the good company either. But at least the whole privacy topic gets some media coverage that way.

titzer 8y ago
Oracle would do better to just publish facts and let other people doing the fighting, IMO. They risk tainting the whole discussion with their radioactivity and I'd prefer it be based on the facts.

Chockster 8y ago

Oracle is also in the business of collecting consumer data for marketing: https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index.html https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/bluekai/index.... > BlueKai also runs the world's largest 3rd party data marketplace to augment a customer's proprietary data with actionable information on more than 700 million profiles.

mdekkers 8y ago

I'm really sick of Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and every other company that uses lies, deceit, ambiguity and general dark patterns to coerce me into parting with the ownership of my systems. Google must be laughing their asses off with all the Facebook scrutiny - I am pretty sure that the profile FB has on users and non-users alike is but a vague precis when compared with the profile Google has on all of us. Microsoft has now started claiming that "Windows is a service" and they can fuck right off. I have lost count on the amount of times my machine rebooted in the middle of the night, despite implementing hack after hack to stop this disgusting behaviour. I paid for my hardware, and I paid for my software - none of these bastards get to decide what part of my data they get to siphon off. They are all at it, like pigs on the trough. I bought a OnePlus 2 years ago, due to the promise that it is lightweight, has no crap pre-installed like an unremovable facebook, or whatever else these fuckers come up with next. Turns out OnePlus is just as happy grabbing your data and silently siphoning this off to some hidden database. I have a new PC on the way, which will be the first time in about 10 years that I'll be going back to a Linux desktop as my main daily driver. My phone is next, I'm looking for a nice feature phone that doesn't send my private information back to these fuckers. Stallman was right.

Lio 8y ago
Could I suggest you look at https://puri.sm/products/ https://puri.sm/products/ for both private phone and laptops running Linux. They can't deliver everything that RMS would look for in a laptop or phone yet but they are actively working to remove all binary blobs from their CoreBoot BIOS and to disable the Intel Management Engine. Their OS is already FSF compliant.
- mdekkers 8y ago
  Thanks for the tip!
wilsonnb 8y ago
I am curious why you think that these companies shouldn't be able to use your data because you paid for the software. Just because you paid for a software license doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with said software. I understand why people don't like this but I don't understand what principles people use to decide that it is immoral or should be illegal.

zmmmmm 8y ago

How naive would you have to be to believe Oracle has showed up in the best interests of consumers and is actually being truthful here? Problem is, from the article it actually feels like the ACCC might indeed be that naive.