4 ms·

> all without doing any real damage to the fairy tales which inspired him I agree with the rest of that sentence, but this really isn't true. Disney's bowdleri

> all without doing any real damage to the fairy tales which inspired him I agree with the rest of that sentence, but this really isn't true. Disney's bowdlerized versions actually do harm and even displace the source material in public consciousness.

pphysch 8y ago
To be fair though, once you undermine this clause, the rest of the comment can be applied to almost any enterprise: illegal drugs, weapons, or almost any other harmful industry.
- user982 8y ago
  "Bringing joy to millions" might be a bit more of a stretch for some of those.
  - pphysch 8y ago
    Proponents of recreational firearms or cannabis certainly use arguments like this.
  - Vindicis 8y ago
    Probably more accurate as hundreds of millions.
  - lovich 8y ago
    It'd be difficult to argue that most drugs do not bring extreme joy to their users, it's just coupled with equally or even more severe lows after. If you could take heroin without getting addicted or dealing with withdrawal, why wouldn't you?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- ardent_uno 8y ago
  That you compare Disney and children's stories to narcotics and "harmful industry" is laughable. Sure guns/drugs etc bring joy to some people but their harmful side effects - both to society and the individual - are much much much worse and widespread compared to Disney which really has very little to no harmful side effects.
dmckeon 8y ago
For the non-Disney versions, try: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Grimms-Fairy-Tales/dp/0394709306 https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Grimms-Fairy-Tales/dp/039470... Spoiler & trigger alert - the princess discovers the true nature of the Frog Prince not with a kiss, but by flinging him against a wall. Many of the other stories are equally blunt, forceful, or realistic for the times they came from. Of note is the modern excision of the last phrase from the closing formula: "And they all lived happily ever after until they died."
- hodgesrm 8y ago
  > Of note is the modern excision of the last phrase from the closing formula: "And they all lived happily ever after until they died." I think this is true of English speakers. In German everyone knows the standard phrase "und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie noch heute" ("And if they have not died then they are still alive today.") It's a sufficiently well known meme that people use it regularly in jokes. Edit: added quote for clarity
- bloak 8y ago
  Most of the Grimm stories don't seem to have a closing formula, as far as I can tell, though there's (at least) one that ends with "sie lebten vergnügt bis an ihr Ende". I suppose I might translate that as: "they lived happily to the end of their days". To me the most familiar closing formula is "und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie noch heute", which is quite interesting to think about really: what does it tell or suggest to the listener?
- dmckeon 8y ago
  I may have put words in the Grimms' mouths here, either from translation or conflation with other sources. Thank you both for the German formulas - there are examples from many languages at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_upon_a_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_upon_a_time
hodgesrm 8y ago
I'm not a huge fan of Walt Disney's versions of fairy tales but in fairness stories like Cinderella were bowdlerized long before the Disney team got hold of them. Disney stories were mostly notable because they were so successful. For example, in the Grimm Brothers version the stepsisters cut off toes and heels to fit into Cinderella's shoes and ride to visit the prince with blood dripping down on the ground. Later they were blinded. The already old version I read while growing up in the US in the late 1960s left that part out. More interestingly, the Grimm Brothers themselves altered many of their own stories substantially in the 7 or so full editions of Grimms' Fairy Tales they published before 1857. Some of the originals were pretty crude. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimms%27_Fairy_Tales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimms%27_Fairy_Tales)
- olavk 8y ago
  There is no "true version" of fairy tales. They are an oral tradition with a multitude of versions - for example Cinderella is known in dozens of different version from across the world, and in the oral tradition probably every narrator had their own version. The Disney Cinderella is based on Charles Perrault's version which was actually published earlier than the Grimms version. Both are recorded from oral versions. Perrault does not have the cutting off of toes, but have a fairy godmother and a magic pumpkin which is not present in the Grimm version. Disney put their own slant on the stories of course, just like any other retelling.
  - hodgesrm 8y ago
    Indeed. The Grimm fairy tales also include "German" stories that were actually of French origin. At least some of their supposedly rustic native sources were Huguenots, i.e., French Protestants, who settled around Kassel where the Grimm brothers lived. Personally I grew up reading (and rereading) the Andrew Lang Fairy Books. They hew to the Perrault version of Cinderella. It would not be surprising if Walt Disney read those growing up. They were immensely popular and included wonderful Art Nouveau illustrations of characters in the stories. H J Ford was the artist for many of them. (Sample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lang's_Fairy_Books#/media/File:The_Blue_Parrot._by_H._J._Ford_for_Andrew_Lang%27s_The_Olive_Fairy_Book.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lang's_Fairy_Books#/med...)
Freak_NL 8y ago
Definitely. Most children born in the Netherlands at one point knew the well-known Grimm collected fairy tail of Rapunzel by its Dutch moniker ('Raponsje'), but ever since Disney released its version of that story the Dutch name got displaced by 'Rapunzel', because that's what Disney is calling her in the Dutch release as well.
dagw 8y ago
Disney's bowdlerized versions actually do harm and even displace the source material in public consciousness. You could easily level the same criticism against Grimm.
ardent_uno 8y ago
Disney created something people liked. The source material of original fairy tales still exists and is readily available. That he "displaced source material in public consciousness" is hardly a critique, in that case I guess we should stop making new music and literature as popular newcomers tend to displace what's previously popular in the public consciousness.

pphysch 8y ago

To be fair though, once you undermine this clause, the rest of the comment can be applied to almost any enterprise: illegal drugs, weapons, or almost any other harmful industry.

user982 8y ago
"Bringing joy to millions" might be a bit more of a stretch for some of those.
- pphysch 8y ago
  Proponents of recreational firearms or cannabis certainly use arguments like this.
- Vindicis 8y ago
  Probably more accurate as hundreds of millions.
- lovich 8y ago
  It'd be difficult to argue that most drugs do not bring extreme joy to their users, it's just coupled with equally or even more severe lows after. If you could take heroin without getting addicted or dealing with withdrawal, why wouldn't you?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ardent_uno 8y ago
That you compare Disney and children's stories to narcotics and "harmful industry" is laughable. Sure guns/drugs etc bring joy to some people but their harmful side effects - both to society and the individual - are much much much worse and widespread compared to Disney which really has very little to no harmful side effects.

dmckeon 8y ago

For the non-Disney versions, try: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Grimms-Fairy-Tales/dp/0394709306 https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Grimms-Fairy-Tales/dp/039470... Spoiler & trigger alert - the princess discovers the true nature of the Frog Prince not with a kiss, but by flinging him against a wall. Many of the other stories are equally blunt, forceful, or realistic for the times they came from. Of note is the modern excision of the last phrase from the closing formula: "And they all lived happily ever after until they died."

hodgesrm 8y ago
> Of note is the modern excision of the last phrase from the closing formula: "And they all lived happily ever after until they died." I think this is true of English speakers. In German everyone knows the standard phrase "und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie noch heute" ("And if they have not died then they are still alive today.") It's a sufficiently well known meme that people use it regularly in jokes. Edit: added quote for clarity
bloak 8y ago
Most of the Grimm stories don't seem to have a closing formula, as far as I can tell, though there's (at least) one that ends with "sie lebten vergnügt bis an ihr Ende". I suppose I might translate that as: "they lived happily to the end of their days". To me the most familiar closing formula is "und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie noch heute", which is quite interesting to think about really: what does it tell or suggest to the listener?
dmckeon 8y ago
I may have put words in the Grimms' mouths here, either from translation or conflation with other sources. Thank you both for the German formulas - there are examples from many languages at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_upon_a_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_upon_a_time

hodgesrm 8y ago

I'm not a huge fan of Walt Disney's versions of fairy tales but in fairness stories like Cinderella were bowdlerized long before the Disney team got hold of them. Disney stories were mostly notable because they were so successful. For example, in the Grimm Brothers version the stepsisters cut off toes and heels to fit into Cinderella's shoes and ride to visit the prince with blood dripping down on the ground. Later they were blinded. The already old version I read while growing up in the US in the late 1960s left that part out. More interestingly, the Grimm Brothers themselves altered many of their own stories substantially in the 7 or so full editions of Grimms' Fairy Tales they published before 1857. Some of the originals were pretty crude. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimms%27_Fairy_Tales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimms%27_Fairy_Tales)

olavk 8y ago
There is no "true version" of fairy tales. They are an oral tradition with a multitude of versions - for example Cinderella is known in dozens of different version from across the world, and in the oral tradition probably every narrator had their own version. The Disney Cinderella is based on Charles Perrault's version which was actually published earlier than the Grimms version. Both are recorded from oral versions. Perrault does not have the cutting off of toes, but have a fairy godmother and a magic pumpkin which is not present in the Grimm version. Disney put their own slant on the stories of course, just like any other retelling.
- hodgesrm 8y ago
  Indeed. The Grimm fairy tales also include "German" stories that were actually of French origin. At least some of their supposedly rustic native sources were Huguenots, i.e., French Protestants, who settled around Kassel where the Grimm brothers lived. Personally I grew up reading (and rereading) the Andrew Lang Fairy Books. They hew to the Perrault version of Cinderella. It would not be surprising if Walt Disney read those growing up. They were immensely popular and included wonderful Art Nouveau illustrations of characters in the stories. H J Ford was the artist for many of them. (Sample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lang's_Fairy_Books#/media/File:The_Blue_Parrot._by_H._J._Ford_for_Andrew_Lang%27s_The_Olive_Fairy_Book.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lang's_Fairy_Books#/med...)

Freak_NL 8y ago

Definitely. Most children born in the Netherlands at one point knew the well-known Grimm collected fairy tail of Rapunzel by its Dutch moniker ('Raponsje'), but ever since Disney released its version of that story the Dutch name got displaced by 'Rapunzel', because that's what Disney is calling her in the Dutch release as well.

dagw 8y ago

Disney's bowdlerized versions actually do harm and even displace the source material in public consciousness. You could easily level the same criticism against Grimm.

ardent_uno 8y ago

Disney created something people liked. The source material of original fairy tales still exists and is readily available. That he "displaced source material in public consciousness" is hardly a critique, in that case I guess we should stop making new music and literature as popular newcomers tend to displace what's previously popular in the public consciousness.