8 ms·

Why are so many programmers arrogant?

46 points by adn37 16y ago

gaius 16y ago
Young people with a natural affinity for an in-demand skill often are. A hundred years ago you could have written this about pilots. 500 years about painters (apprentices to the great masters in the Renaissance were notorious for it). As an aside, for every genuine Aspbergers case, there are 10 who simply think they have a god-given right to act like dicks. It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones because they're quietly getting on with it, not making a huge attention-getting fuss.
- easyfrag 16y ago
  I agree with this, I've worked in health care and programmers have nothing on physicians when it comes to arrogance. I don't know any programmers who would coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment...
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Check out the 'save my life' thread.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    I think the same rule holds with doctors as with programmers - there are tremendously arrogant people who use their position as a surrogate for competence, and there are people who really are competent and don't have much time to deal with fools. The only way to tell the difference is to watch their results for a while. Jacquesm mentions the "save my life" thread. Yeah. Read that. I'm one of the programmers would damn straight coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment - until I know which of the above groups the physician in question falls into.
- _delirium 16y ago
  It's interesting that you mention apprentices to the great masters, which squares with my experience--- the most arrogant people, or at least the most abrasive and outgoing with their arrogance, are usually the 2nd and 3rd tiers, not the top tier. There are arrogant people at the top tier, but many fewer than I would've thought. I suspect it has something to do with no longer feeling a need to prove themselves, no longer feeling in competition with people, etc. There might also be a bit of branching out into other areas later in one's career that causes them to be a bit more humble, since famous people often try to become more generalist once they've gotten famous in a specific area, and it's harder to be arrogant in a very wide area than in a niche. Among people I interact with, there seems to be sort of a peak of arrogance among people who are very good in a narrow area in their 20s and 30s, while famous people in their 40s or 50s are often quite humble and generous in their evaluation of other people. At CS conferences, for example, you don't find folks like Donald Knuth asking pedantic dick questions very often, but you do find the "ugh how could anybody not have read [x], did you even do any research?" type attitudes from junior profs and grad students.
- kls 16y ago
  It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones because they're quietly getting on with it, not making a huge attention-getting fuss. I think a good deal of individuals that draw attention to it do so because they are generally embarrassed by some of the manifestations of this particular problem. You can have an otherwise intelligent person, who's writing can give the indication that there thoughts are somehow less valid, because there intelligence should be questioned due to gramatical errors. I think stating it, is a way of an individual saying "hey don't discount my thoughts due to the vessel they come it" I know for me personally, it is a source of major embarrassment and this damned iPhone keyboard only makes it dreadfully worse.
deleted 16y ago
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jacquesm 16y ago
They're not really arrogant, they just come off as such. Programmers usually are pretty clever cookies and as a rule are more often right than wrong, even if the subject is not programming, that alone is enough to mark them as arrogant. We also tend to be an opinionated bunch. Some of them compound the problem by no longer considering other people to be occasionally right and them being wrong and do cross the line in to arrogance. It's fine as long as people agree on things but as soon as one party starts to ignore the other when they disagree then you have trouble. For an encore, check 'mathematicians are arrogant', 'physicists are arrogant', 'surgeons are arrogant' and so on. Anybody that has a job that requires a ton of study and a lot of brain work will tend towards this, it's human, nothing specific about programmers. That doesn't help you when you're faced with a nice sample of a prima-donna arrogant programmer though, they do happen, just no more than in other 'brainy' professions.
- adn37 16y ago
  Arrogance is about the way they deliver the feedback. For some, diplomacy is hard since they can't understand why others fail to meet their technical/knowledge/... expectations. At work, I'm surrounded by smart people. They often outsmart me but a common trap they fall into is not doing enough meta thinking. They seem stuck on level 1 of things.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    You are describing it as a mere packaging problem but I think it goes deeper than that. I think arrogance is exemplified by being closed-minded, refusing to even consider the other persons point of view. And once you do that you will almost always moderate your statements, whereas those that think they are structurally in the right do not feel the need to do so, they will treat the rest of the world as though they're slightly stupid children and their tone will reflect that.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - ScottBurson 16y ago
Mz 16y ago
I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surgery later." The surgeon was quite affronted and said "You won't need cosmetic surgery when I am done." The scar is nearly invisible -- less visible than the cyst that was removed. Even people who knew me before the surgery and know I had my face cut on have difficulty finding the scar. I concluded that if you can bring it, maybe you aren't actually arrogant. Maybe you are just stating the facts, regardless of how it might sound to other people.
- bedris 16y ago
  "If you done it, it ain’t bragging." -Walt Whitman
  - gruseom 16y ago
    No way did Whitman say that.
- itg 16y ago
  You can state the same thing different ways depending on the words you use, tone of voice, etc. Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else. And just because you are brilliant at something in particular does not mean you also have equally brilliant diplomatic skills so as to be able to state the fact (that you are exceptionally competent at X) without sounding arrogant. I try to cut people some slack in that regard.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
bodhi 16y ago
Is it really more severe in programming than the rest of society? Most of the programmers I've met have been quite nice, the only people I can recall meeting that I actually thought "I never want to meet them again!" have been a pair of young lawyers.
adn37 16y ago
I've noticed it countless times, from underground scenes' irc chans and meetups, to the office. Each case is different, that's the beauty of it. At least, they will judge you on ideas, not on appearance. (edit: only if they consider you worth their time, which isn't easily earned.) So are they really to blame?
meric 16y ago
"The wild programmer (Scriptus exemplarus aspergerii) is generally a shy creature when in its natural habitat. While some deviant boisterous specimens do exist, they are the oddity rather than the rule. He is content with spending his life staring at rectangular pieces of backlit canvas, and occasionally bashing on rectangular pieces of polished material. Come to think of it, most of his activities revolve around rectangles: the rectangular nutrient clumps he tends to favor eating, the rectangular primitive communication device he always carries around, the beige or black boxes he is so attached to, even organizing his workspace into cubes." I was just chewing my favorite rectangle shaped cereal when I was reading this.
- J3L2404 16y ago
  Rounded Rects
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    That's web 2.0, right?
joelmichael 16y ago
I am a programmer and have had a history of arrogance, but I now associate it with social immaturity. Humility is much more comfortable. However, one shouldn't reject another just because they exhibit some pride. That is also arrogant. Everyone has their character flaws, and variety is the spice of life.
robryan 16y ago
Depending on your interests and how much time you spend reading, learning and engaging you may end up being knowledgeable on a whole stack of subjects. When you interact with others without this same intensity your bound to come off arrogant. For programmers many things are complementary, interests in Maths, Physics, Finance can easily stem from loving the numerical and mathematical aspects of programming. Effective programming also requires good communication skills and tends to require more formal written language to precisely explain more complex or abstract concepts that come with programming, this can lead to other interests to.
rick_2047 16y ago
Any person who has rational thoughts in this diplomatic world would seem arrogant to some scale. Example, Rational:"The education system in India is seriously broken beyond repair. Anyone who succeeds, succeeds despite the system and not because of the system." Diplomatic:"The education system of India is not really on the right track, but we have a real flow of potential. This is evident by the number of people that succeed"
- kabdib 16y ago
  So, how does the Diplomatic track then get to address the brokenness? "But you said we were on the right track?"
  - rick_2047 16y ago
    The diplomats said we were on the right track, but it was just fancy words for we are totally fucked
jrockway 16y ago
Wow, a site more inane than Meta StackOverflow. I didn't think it was possible...
- mahmud 16y ago
  I think that thread now has an "Exhibit A" supporting evidence ;-)
chrisbennet 16y ago
While I don't doubt that the stereotype exists for a reason (the arrogant, maladjusted programmer) I can't really remember encountering any in all the time I've been working with other programmers (25ys). Perhaps it's more prevalent in non face to face situations like chat rooms or with the less mature. I've seen the brilliant ones get a little frustrated with "slow" people but they weren't dickheads about it. In my personal experience, developers really go out of their way to help an enthusiastic "newbie" get up to speed. On the other hand, I have seen situations where a newbie would ask a forum for an answer to his homework assignment and then get upset because he didn't get an immediate answer or someone pointed him to a source for his answer ("here's a link to sorting algorithms") instead of coding up the assignment for him.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > I can't really remember encountering any in all the time I've been working with other programmers While I don't recall any such encounter with any programmer, I have observed many icon-dragging, button-clicking arrogant pricks that called themselves programmers because lave learned that clicking the third button from the second group in the toolbar turns whatever they mashed together into an executable file. To the average user, such a beast is absolutely indistinguishable from a real programmer and, so, the confusion is understandable. ;-)
c00p3r 16y ago
programmers? ^_^
sammyo 16y ago
A bit similar to Medical experience, a deep familiarity with computer systems that many fine opaque may come across quite arrogant. Picture someone struggling with a setting and you fly by, "hot key to x menu, third tab, look for option Q, set it to baz", just seems obvious (although it took an hour of goolge-time to discover) but as you rush off the dazed user is still struggling.
JanezStupar 16y ago
I have been called arrogant after I politely pointed out that people are driving 300mph towards a wall. I have been called arrogant when after they crashed I politely pointed out that I warned them in time that they will crash and burn. I have been called arrogant when I refused to clean up the mess for a 100th time - which could easily be prevented if people took a little bit of caution and tried to understand their own predicament. I have also been called arrogant when I insisted that something has to be done YESTERDAY to systemically prevent results that have profound negative impacts. Yup... I guess It has to be us.
- _delirium 16y ago
  Man this is even an arrogant way of writing a comment! And with a hero complex thrown in, too.
  - JanezStupar 16y ago
    :) What I find interesting tho - is how before you commented I kept getting upvoted. But then a steady stream of downwotes hit. So to steer back from tangent - seems like perception of one's arrogance depends more on popular opinion than one's own merit.
COP 16y ago
As a programmer and someone who has started a small SaaS software business by myself. I can related to this comment. Programmer are the doers. They often pride themselves as the ones who are actually getting things done in an technology company. This mentality often comes off to "those who manages or lead" as arrogant, and rightfully so. Often the doers don't see the bigger picture. For example, the relationships that is required to have individuals in an organization work together as a whole.
maxawaytoolong 16y ago
Most people cannot tell the difference between arrogance and confidence. If you're confident you can't avoid people grumbling about how arrogant you are. And if you are arrogant you can't avoid women sleeping with you because you exude confidence. Although your pastor, guidance counselor and boy scout manuals will suggest the opposite, I've found it's better to err on the side of being slightly arrogant than humble. Just make sure you can back it up.
wisty 16y ago
There's a lot of ways programmers can be arrogant: * Black-and-white feedback. Software is very black and white. Your dietitian can tell you to "reduce your sugar intake" instead of telling you you're fat because you drink so much cola. There's no way to sugar coat "you pressed the wrong button, and now you have to start over", unless you want to point out that the programmer who make the stupid program must have been an idiot. Either way, you look arrogant. * We read a lot. Hackers usually know about the Milgram experiment, how Easter Island's economy collapsed when they cut down all the trees (peak wood), and why wikipedia may or may not be accurate. People who know it all come across as arrogant. * We speak another language. No, not C. Programmers often speak a dialect that's a bit like English, but evolved into something a little different over IRC and BBs. That language isn't always rude, but it's different, and different can often come across as rude. * We need to be intellectually assertive. We will find out why the core got dumped, and fix it. It's our brains against the compiler. If we don't win, our programs won't work. * Arrogant programmers are still employable. There are plenty of arrogant HR officers, secretaries, school teachers, and shop assistants; but none of them act that way on the job. Sales guys are said to be unbelievably arrogant, but you can bet they will be very polite to potential customers. * Heck, if we get too passive aggressive when we tell the PHB he's wrong, it can end in disaster. "Getting the team onto a version control system is universally agreed to be an essential best practice. It aids communication, reduces bugs, and keeps the source code safe" just isn't strong enough. He's already heard a similar pitch from a guy selling UML code generators, and look how that turned out. A bit more drama might be needed: "We aren't using a VCS. ANYBODY knows that this is as stupid as [your analogy] to control STDs."
- Tichy 16y ago
  About the easter island, I have read an opposing theory that blames it's downfall on rats who ate the trees. Presumably the rats were imported somehow. Would love to know what the current theory is. (The article was in some Geo or National Geographic magazine, a while after "Collapse" came out).
- jacquesm 16y ago
  If there is one inanimate object that will teach you with great patience and to devastating effect how often you are wrong it is the computer.
hbt 16y ago
1. If they make a mistake, don't correct them. Answer them shortly after using the correct form. 2. If you're right and they are wrong. Shut up and listen. 3. If they make you feel uncomfortable, be bold. 4. If they get emotional or unprofessional, steer the conversation into cold-blooded, calculated facts. 5. When dealing with regular Joe, don't waste time. Extract needed information and get it over with. 6. If it is a group conversation or meeting, only speak to make a point. Keep it short. Perhaps this only applies to programmers dealing with other programmers and on occasion managers. One thing for sure, in my line of work, dealing with people is about extracting/exchanging information. Having a personality, being emotional is pointless. The goal is to get shit done. Leave your pride at the door. However, in my personal life, I try not to be like a human vending machine of information.
defdac 16y ago
Because context switching from an interesting problem with hundreds of variables is incredible annoying..
clueless123 16y ago
I am not arrogant. I just have very little patience for incompetent stupidity!
qjz 16y ago
Why are so many teenagers arrogant? Perhaps it's the same with programmers and is just a phase, as suggested by this fascinating essay: http://www.johnbyrd.org/html/bosslevel/ProgrammerModes.html http://www.johnbyrd.org/html/bosslevel/ProgrammerModes.html
MartinCron 16y ago
I've found that when I don't really care about what I'm working on, I can be the most diplomatic and humble programmer around. Tabs vs. spaces? Whatever. This language over that one? No strong opinion. But in a scenario when what I'm working on is important to me, when I've totally bought-in and care about what's going to happen, I have a much harder time with being properly diplomatic. Specifically, when I see someone driving us toward a brick wall, I get more and more aggressive as that wall approaches and I'm ignored. When and if that collision happens, I have a hard time not saying "I told you so", if only so people will take me more seriously next time we're headed for a crash. I once ruined a professional relationship and lost a job because (I believe) my manager couldn't stand the idea of hearing "I told you so" from me one more time. And yes, it turns out I was right about that last thing as well. I try to trust my comrades, but I also have to trust my instincts, and when they are at odds over high-stakes things the internal conflict becomes unbearable. Anyone have experience or advice on dealing with this?
Kilimanjaro 16y ago
Age and arrogance go in opposite directions. We are young, smart and arrogant. We all are. We are smarter than everybody else. The older we grow, the wiser; we use our intelligence to gain knowledge and to balance our life and make the lives easier for those around us. We become less arrogant and more humble as we grow older.
kthxbye 16y ago
Also from my experience there seems to a culture of negative motivation going on around engineers/programmers. I've seen a lot of it in open source projects and amongst engineers both professionally and in education. People berate and punish in order to make people understand what is wanted/needed, instead of engaging in teamwork and constructive feedback.
skowmunk 16y ago
Hmm... would it make more sense if the question used "... perceived as arrogant?" instead of just "arrogant?"? (disclaimer: I am not a hard core programmer, if I were modest I would call myself a beginner) I have been long perceived as arrogant and an aloof person, while I think I am not really one. Over time trying to analyze the root cause for this (it is a big problem as it interjects into developing personal relationships) perception and reading books and listening to audio books, I realized that there are some other aspects of me that cause this perception. some of them being: 1) Shyness (one of the reason - shy people avoid eye contact giving rise to the perception to others that they don't care about others and by default tag you as arrogant) 2) bad conversation skills - going into monologues ( when you are not into the habit of back and forth conversation style and go into monologues (being highly passionate about some topics doesn't' help either :)), the other party can think that you don't care to listen to others and can tag you as arrogant) 3) giving unsolicited advice ( I have received a hell lot of great advice over years from so many different people that is simply too valuable to put a price on. sometimes, in a misplaced and idealistic view of returning the favor, I used to go about giving unsolicited advice to friends and acquaintances, sometimes putting the value of 'enlightenment of another perspective' in others' problem solving over my relationship with them. I think it gave me lot of tags of being "arrogant", " What does he think of himself?", "he has got a chip on his shoulder" over the years and drained away many possible friendships) Good thing I have started working on these three and hopefully should be better off in the future in the social aspects. But coming back to the point, if the programmers that adn37 had in mind when posing this question are the shy type with poor social skills, I think it is highly possible that they may have come across as being more arrogant than they really are. Just one possibility. Other, than that, I think the incidence of arrogance among programmers is as likely or not, as in any other professions.
gruseom 16y ago
Overidentification with the cognitive apparatus combined with a propensity for binary thinking.

46 points by adn37 16y ago

gaius 16y ago

Young people with a natural affinity for an in-demand skill often are. A hundred years ago you could have written this about pilots. 500 years about painters (apprentices to the great masters in the Renaissance were notorious for it). As an aside, for every genuine Aspbergers case, there are 10 who simply think they have a god-given right to act like dicks. It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones because they're quietly getting on with it, not making a huge attention-getting fuss.

easyfrag 16y ago
I agree with this, I've worked in health care and programmers have nothing on physicians when it comes to arrogance. I don't know any programmers who would coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment...
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Check out the 'save my life' thread.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  I think the same rule holds with doctors as with programmers - there are tremendously arrogant people who use their position as a surrogate for competence, and there are people who really are competent and don't have much time to deal with fools. The only way to tell the difference is to watch their results for a while. Jacquesm mentions the "save my life" thread. Yeah. Read that. I'm one of the programmers would damn straight coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment - until I know which of the above groups the physician in question falls into.
_delirium 16y ago
It's interesting that you mention apprentices to the great masters, which squares with my experience--- the most arrogant people, or at least the most abrasive and outgoing with their arrogance, are usually the 2nd and 3rd tiers, not the top tier. There are arrogant people at the top tier, but many fewer than I would've thought. I suspect it has something to do with no longer feeling a need to prove themselves, no longer feeling in competition with people, etc. There might also be a bit of branching out into other areas later in one's career that causes them to be a bit more humble, since famous people often try to become more generalist once they've gotten famous in a specific area, and it's harder to be arrogant in a very wide area than in a niche. Among people I interact with, there seems to be sort of a peak of arrogance among people who are very good in a narrow area in their 20s and 30s, while famous people in their 40s or 50s are often quite humble and generous in their evaluation of other people. At CS conferences, for example, you don't find folks like Donald Knuth asking pedantic dick questions very often, but you do find the "ugh how could anybody not have read [x], did you even do any research?" type attitudes from junior profs and grad students.
kls 16y ago
It's like dyslexics, you can always tell the real ones because they're quietly getting on with it, not making a huge attention-getting fuss. I think a good deal of individuals that draw attention to it do so because they are generally embarrassed by some of the manifestations of this particular problem. You can have an otherwise intelligent person, who's writing can give the indication that there thoughts are somehow less valid, because there intelligence should be questioned due to gramatical errors. I think stating it, is a way of an individual saying "hey don't discount my thoughts due to the vessel they come it" I know for me personally, it is a source of major embarrassment and this damned iPhone keyboard only makes it dreadfully worse.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 16y ago

They're not really arrogant, they just come off as such. Programmers usually are pretty clever cookies and as a rule are more often right than wrong, even if the subject is not programming, that alone is enough to mark them as arrogant. We also tend to be an opinionated bunch. Some of them compound the problem by no longer considering other people to be occasionally right and them being wrong and do cross the line in to arrogance. It's fine as long as people agree on things but as soon as one party starts to ignore the other when they disagree then you have trouble. For an encore, check 'mathematicians are arrogant', 'physicists are arrogant', 'surgeons are arrogant' and so on. Anybody that has a job that requires a ton of study and a lot of brain work will tend towards this, it's human, nothing specific about programmers. That doesn't help you when you're faced with a nice sample of a prima-donna arrogant programmer though, they do happen, just no more than in other 'brainy' professions.

adn37 16y ago
Arrogance is about the way they deliver the feedback. For some, diplomacy is hard since they can't understand why others fail to meet their technical/knowledge/... expectations. At work, I'm surrounded by smart people. They often outsmart me but a common trap they fall into is not doing enough meta thinking. They seem stuck on level 1 of things.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  You are describing it as a mere packaging problem but I think it goes deeper than that. I think arrogance is exemplified by being closed-minded, refusing to even consider the other persons point of view. And once you do that you will almost always moderate your statements, whereas those that think they are structurally in the right do not feel the need to do so, they will treat the rest of the world as though they're slightly stupid children and their tone will reflect that.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - ScottBurson 16y ago

Mz 16y ago

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surgery later." The surgeon was quite affronted and said "You won't need cosmetic surgery when I am done." The scar is nearly invisible -- less visible than the cyst that was removed. Even people who knew me before the surgery and know I had my face cut on have difficulty finding the scar. I concluded that if you can bring it, maybe you aren't actually arrogant. Maybe you are just stating the facts, regardless of how it might sound to other people.

bedris 16y ago
"If you done it, it ain’t bragging." -Walt Whitman
- gruseom 16y ago
  No way did Whitman say that.
itg 16y ago
You can state the same thing different ways depending on the words you use, tone of voice, etc. Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else.
- Mz 16y ago
  Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else. And just because you are brilliant at something in particular does not mean you also have equally brilliant diplomatic skills so as to be able to state the fact (that you are exceptionally competent at X) without sounding arrogant. I try to cut people some slack in that regard.
- tomjen3 16y ago

bodhi 16y ago

Is it really more severe in programming than the rest of society? Most of the programmers I've met have been quite nice, the only people I can recall meeting that I actually thought "I never want to meet them again!" have been a pair of young lawyers.

adn37 16y ago

I've noticed it countless times, from underground scenes' irc chans and meetups, to the office. Each case is different, that's the beauty of it. At least, they will judge you on ideas, not on appearance. (edit: only if they consider you worth their time, which isn't easily earned.) So are they really to blame?

meric 16y ago

"The wild programmer (Scriptus exemplarus aspergerii) is generally a shy creature when in its natural habitat. While some deviant boisterous specimens do exist, they are the oddity rather than the rule. He is content with spending his life staring at rectangular pieces of backlit canvas, and occasionally bashing on rectangular pieces of polished material. Come to think of it, most of his activities revolve around rectangles: the rectangular nutrient clumps he tends to favor eating, the rectangular primitive communication device he always carries around, the beige or black boxes he is so attached to, even organizing his workspace into cubes." I was just chewing my favorite rectangle shaped cereal when I was reading this.

J3L2404 16y ago
Rounded Rects
- rbanffy 16y ago
  That's web 2.0, right?

joelmichael 16y ago

I am a programmer and have had a history of arrogance, but I now associate it with social immaturity. Humility is much more comfortable. However, one shouldn't reject another just because they exhibit some pride. That is also arrogant. Everyone has their character flaws, and variety is the spice of life.

robryan 16y ago

Depending on your interests and how much time you spend reading, learning and engaging you may end up being knowledgeable on a whole stack of subjects. When you interact with others without this same intensity your bound to come off arrogant. For programmers many things are complementary, interests in Maths, Physics, Finance can easily stem from loving the numerical and mathematical aspects of programming. Effective programming also requires good communication skills and tends to require more formal written language to precisely explain more complex or abstract concepts that come with programming, this can lead to other interests to.

rick_2047 16y ago

Any person who has rational thoughts in this diplomatic world would seem arrogant to some scale. Example, Rational:"The education system in India is seriously broken beyond repair. Anyone who succeeds, succeeds despite the system and not because of the system." Diplomatic:"The education system of India is not really on the right track, but we have a real flow of potential. This is evident by the number of people that succeed"

kabdib 16y ago
So, how does the Diplomatic track then get to address the brokenness? "But you said we were on the right track?"
- rick_2047 16y ago
  The diplomats said we were on the right track, but it was just fancy words for we are totally fucked

jrockway 16y ago

Wow, a site more inane than Meta StackOverflow. I didn't think it was possible...

mahmud 16y ago
I think that thread now has an "Exhibit A" supporting evidence ;-)

chrisbennet 16y ago

While I don't doubt that the stereotype exists for a reason (the arrogant, maladjusted programmer) I can't really remember encountering any in all the time I've been working with other programmers (25ys). Perhaps it's more prevalent in non face to face situations like chat rooms or with the less mature. I've seen the brilliant ones get a little frustrated with "slow" people but they weren't dickheads about it. In my personal experience, developers really go out of their way to help an enthusiastic "newbie" get up to speed. On the other hand, I have seen situations where a newbie would ask a forum for an answer to his homework assignment and then get upset because he didn't get an immediate answer or someone pointed him to a source for his answer ("here's a link to sorting algorithms") instead of coding up the assignment for him.

rbanffy 16y ago
> I can't really remember encountering any in all the time I've been working with other programmers While I don't recall any such encounter with any programmer, I have observed many icon-dragging, button-clicking arrogant pricks that called themselves programmers because lave learned that clicking the third button from the second group in the toolbar turns whatever they mashed together into an executable file. To the average user, such a beast is absolutely indistinguishable from a real programmer and, so, the confusion is understandable. ;-)

c00p3r 16y ago

programmers? ^_^

sammyo 16y ago

A bit similar to Medical experience, a deep familiarity with computer systems that many fine opaque may come across quite arrogant. Picture someone struggling with a setting and you fly by, "hot key to x menu, third tab, look for option Q, set it to baz", just seems obvious (although it took an hour of goolge-time to discover) but as you rush off the dazed user is still struggling.

JanezStupar 16y ago

I have been called arrogant after I politely pointed out that people are driving 300mph towards a wall. I have been called arrogant when after they crashed I politely pointed out that I warned them in time that they will crash and burn. I have been called arrogant when I refused to clean up the mess for a 100th time - which could easily be prevented if people took a little bit of caution and tried to understand their own predicament. I have also been called arrogant when I insisted that something has to be done YESTERDAY to systemically prevent results that have profound negative impacts. Yup... I guess It has to be us.

_delirium 16y ago
Man this is even an arrogant way of writing a comment! And with a hero complex thrown in, too.
- JanezStupar 16y ago
  :) What I find interesting tho - is how before you commented I kept getting upvoted. But then a steady stream of downwotes hit. So to steer back from tangent - seems like perception of one's arrogance depends more on popular opinion than one's own merit.

COP 16y ago

As a programmer and someone who has started a small SaaS software business by myself. I can related to this comment. Programmer are the doers. They often pride themselves as the ones who are actually getting things done in an technology company. This mentality often comes off to "those who manages or lead" as arrogant, and rightfully so. Often the doers don't see the bigger picture. For example, the relationships that is required to have individuals in an organization work together as a whole.

maxawaytoolong 16y ago

Most people cannot tell the difference between arrogance and confidence. If you're confident you can't avoid people grumbling about how arrogant you are. And if you are arrogant you can't avoid women sleeping with you because you exude confidence. Although your pastor, guidance counselor and boy scout manuals will suggest the opposite, I've found it's better to err on the side of being slightly arrogant than humble. Just make sure you can back it up.

wisty 16y ago

There's a lot of ways programmers can be arrogant: * Black-and-white feedback. Software is very black and white. Your dietitian can tell you to "reduce your sugar intake" instead of telling you you're fat because you drink so much cola. There's no way to sugar coat "you pressed the wrong button, and now you have to start over", unless you want to point out that the programmer who make the stupid program must have been an idiot. Either way, you look arrogant. * We read a lot. Hackers usually know about the Milgram experiment, how Easter Island's economy collapsed when they cut down all the trees (peak wood), and why wikipedia may or may not be accurate. People who know it all come across as arrogant. * We speak another language. No, not C. Programmers often speak a dialect that's a bit like English, but evolved into something a little different over IRC and BBs. That language isn't always rude, but it's different, and different can often come across as rude. * We need to be intellectually assertive. We will find out why the core got dumped, and fix it. It's our brains against the compiler. If we don't win, our programs won't work. * Arrogant programmers are still employable. There are plenty of arrogant HR officers, secretaries, school teachers, and shop assistants; but none of them act that way on the job. Sales guys are said to be unbelievably arrogant, but you can bet they will be very polite to potential customers. * Heck, if we get too passive aggressive when we tell the PHB he's wrong, it can end in disaster. "Getting the team onto a version control system is universally agreed to be an essential best practice. It aids communication, reduces bugs, and keeps the source code safe" just isn't strong enough. He's already heard a similar pitch from a guy selling UML code generators, and look how that turned out. A bit more drama might be needed: "We aren't using a VCS. ANYBODY knows that this is as stupid as [your analogy] to control STDs."

Tichy 16y ago
About the easter island, I have read an opposing theory that blames it's downfall on rats who ate the trees. Presumably the rats were imported somehow. Would love to know what the current theory is. (The article was in some Geo or National Geographic magazine, a while after "Collapse" came out).
jacquesm 16y ago
If there is one inanimate object that will teach you with great patience and to devastating effect how often you are wrong it is the computer.

hbt 16y ago

1. If they make a mistake, don't correct them. Answer them shortly after using the correct form. 2. If you're right and they are wrong. Shut up and listen. 3. If they make you feel uncomfortable, be bold. 4. If they get emotional or unprofessional, steer the conversation into cold-blooded, calculated facts. 5. When dealing with regular Joe, don't waste time. Extract needed information and get it over with. 6. If it is a group conversation or meeting, only speak to make a point. Keep it short. Perhaps this only applies to programmers dealing with other programmers and on occasion managers. One thing for sure, in my line of work, dealing with people is about extracting/exchanging information. Having a personality, being emotional is pointless. The goal is to get shit done. Leave your pride at the door. However, in my personal life, I try not to be like a human vending machine of information.

defdac 16y ago

Because context switching from an interesting problem with hundreds of variables is incredible annoying..

clueless123 16y ago

I am not arrogant. I just have very little patience for incompetent stupidity!

qjz 16y ago

Why are so many teenagers arrogant? Perhaps it's the same with programmers and is just a phase, as suggested by this fascinating essay: http://www.johnbyrd.org/html/bosslevel/ProgrammerModes.html http://www.johnbyrd.org/html/bosslevel/ProgrammerModes.html

MartinCron 16y ago

I've found that when I don't really care about what I'm working on, I can be the most diplomatic and humble programmer around. Tabs vs. spaces? Whatever. This language over that one? No strong opinion. But in a scenario when what I'm working on is important to me, when I've totally bought-in and care about what's going to happen, I have a much harder time with being properly diplomatic. Specifically, when I see someone driving us toward a brick wall, I get more and more aggressive as that wall approaches and I'm ignored. When and if that collision happens, I have a hard time not saying "I told you so", if only so people will take me more seriously next time we're headed for a crash. I once ruined a professional relationship and lost a job because (I believe) my manager couldn't stand the idea of hearing "I told you so" from me one more time. And yes, it turns out I was right about that last thing as well. I try to trust my comrades, but I also have to trust my instincts, and when they are at odds over high-stakes things the internal conflict becomes unbearable. Anyone have experience or advice on dealing with this?

Kilimanjaro 16y ago

Age and arrogance go in opposite directions. We are young, smart and arrogant. We all are. We are smarter than everybody else. The older we grow, the wiser; we use our intelligence to gain knowledge and to balance our life and make the lives easier for those around us. We become less arrogant and more humble as we grow older.

kthxbye 16y ago

Also from my experience there seems to a culture of negative motivation going on around engineers/programmers. I've seen a lot of it in open source projects and amongst engineers both professionally and in education. People berate and punish in order to make people understand what is wanted/needed, instead of engaging in teamwork and constructive feedback.

skowmunk 16y ago

Hmm... would it make more sense if the question used "... perceived as arrogant?" instead of just "arrogant?"? (disclaimer: I am not a hard core programmer, if I were modest I would call myself a beginner) I have been long perceived as arrogant and an aloof person, while I think I am not really one. Over time trying to analyze the root cause for this (it is a big problem as it interjects into developing personal relationships) perception and reading books and listening to audio books, I realized that there are some other aspects of me that cause this perception. some of them being: 1) Shyness (one of the reason - shy people avoid eye contact giving rise to the perception to others that they don't care about others and by default tag you as arrogant) 2) bad conversation skills - going into monologues ( when you are not into the habit of back and forth conversation style and go into monologues (being highly passionate about some topics doesn't' help either :)), the other party can think that you don't care to listen to others and can tag you as arrogant) 3) giving unsolicited advice ( I have received a hell lot of great advice over years from so many different people that is simply too valuable to put a price on. sometimes, in a misplaced and idealistic view of returning the favor, I used to go about giving unsolicited advice to friends and acquaintances, sometimes putting the value of 'enlightenment of another perspective' in others' problem solving over my relationship with them. I think it gave me lot of tags of being "arrogant", " What does he think of himself?", "he has got a chip on his shoulder" over the years and drained away many possible friendships) Good thing I have started working on these three and hopefully should be better off in the future in the social aspects. But coming back to the point, if the programmers that adn37 had in mind when posing this question are the shy type with poor social skills, I think it is highly possible that they may have come across as being more arrogant than they really are. Just one possibility. Other, than that, I think the incidence of arrogance among programmers is as likely or not, as in any other professions.

gruseom 16y ago

Overidentification with the cognitive apparatus combined with a propensity for binary thinking.