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Sure the analogy is imperfect. I also don't have a perfect analogy for a browser vendor hobbling its newer product. But I'm just appealing to common sense wrt n

Sure the analogy is imperfect. I also don't have a perfect analogy for a browser vendor hobbling its newer product. But I'm just appealing to common sense wrt not addressing an extremely common use of something yet wanting that something to stop being used. I personally don't think they should implement the MSHTML/COM APIs with Edge any more than I think they should implement ActiveX on Edge. The old tech can die its slow death, so long as there is a viable replacement. Selfishly, I want this for https://github.com/zserge/webview https://github.com/zserge/webview to watch Electron adoption decrease or even an API-compat version using shared libs already on the system.

cptskippy 8y ago
It's less about hobbling Edge and more about compelling you to not use Win32 while keeping you stuck in Windows. Win32 needs to die and Microsoft is doing everything it can to kill it while not completely pissing off those that rely upon it. Part of the problem is that if they force everyone to rewrite Win32 native apps then what's stopping them from just going to MacOS or something else? They want everyone off Win32 but still locked into Windows.
- userbinator 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's not going away, especially because the newer more bloated stuff they're trying to push is built on top of it, and that's not going to change unless MS decides to start officially documenting the native NTAPI. They day they get rid of Win32 is the day I switch completely to Linux+WINE or even ReactOS.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Such as? Products like Office have undergone significant refactoring to remove reliance on Win32. They have something like over 90% code reuse between Office apps on MacOS, OSX, Android, Win32, and Xaml. With every release of Windows 10, more and more GDI and Win32 is replaced. Part of the MinWin project was to extricate Win32 from the kernel and have a true separation.
    - userbinator 8y ago
      For example, .NET framework calls into Win32 CreateFile when opening a file: https://referencesource.microsoft.com/#mscorlib/microsoft/win32/win32native.cs,a049b9ef1a4c580d https://referencesource.microsoft.com/#mscorlib/microsoft/wi... Products like Office have undergone significant refactoring to remove reliance on Win32. Then what are they using instead? Whatever it is, how does it provide the basic functions? Does it call into native NT API directly? Part of the MinWin project was to extricate Win32 from the kernel and have a true separation. What? Win32 is not part of the kernel, it's a layer on top of the native NT API (or VMM32, if you remember Win9x...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Disassembly/Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Disassembly/Microsoft_Wind...
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        > Then what are they using instead? Whatever it is, how does it provide the basic functions? Does it call into native NT API directly? They use a PAL, each platform has it's own PAL and the Windows Kernel as two (WinRT and Win32). https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-microsoft-is-taking-on-the-cross-platform-challenge-with-office/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-microsoft-is-taking-on-the... > What? Win32 is not part of the kernel, it's a layer on top of the native NT API (or VMM32, if you remember Win9x...) It wasn't. When WinNT hit the scene in the 90s there was definitely a distinction between Userland and Kernel space but by XP there was so much encroachment. MinWin was the creation of horizontal layers of separation. https://betanews.com/2009/12/02/mark-russinovich-on-minwin-the-new-core-of-windows/ https://betanews.com/2009/12/02/mark-russinovich-on-minwin-t...
        userbinator 8y ago
        Both those articles are heavy on marketing and light on detail, but if the PAL they're talking about is anything like the one described here... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/12/how-an-old-drawbridge-helped-microsoft-bring-sql-server-to-linux/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/12/how-a... ...the "PAL" is basically the Win32 libraries with a different interface on the other side (in some ways, like WINE), so no, Win32 is not going away.
chrismorgan 8y ago
Amusingly, I’m the one that filed https://github.com/zserge/webview/issues/85 https://github.com/zserge/webview/issues/85!

cptskippy 8y ago

It's less about hobbling Edge and more about compelling you to not use Win32 while keeping you stuck in Windows. Win32 needs to die and Microsoft is doing everything it can to kill it while not completely pissing off those that rely upon it. Part of the problem is that if they force everyone to rewrite Win32 native apps then what's stopping them from just going to MacOS or something else? They want everyone off Win32 but still locked into Windows.

userbinator 8y ago
I'm pretty sure it's not going away, especially because the newer more bloated stuff they're trying to push is built on top of it, and that's not going to change unless MS decides to start officially documenting the native NTAPI. They day they get rid of Win32 is the day I switch completely to Linux+WINE or even ReactOS.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  Such as? Products like Office have undergone significant refactoring to remove reliance on Win32. They have something like over 90% code reuse between Office apps on MacOS, OSX, Android, Win32, and Xaml. With every release of Windows 10, more and more GDI and Win32 is replaced. Part of the MinWin project was to extricate Win32 from the kernel and have a true separation.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    For example, .NET framework calls into Win32 CreateFile when opening a file: https://referencesource.microsoft.com/#mscorlib/microsoft/win32/win32native.cs,a049b9ef1a4c580d https://referencesource.microsoft.com/#mscorlib/microsoft/wi... Products like Office have undergone significant refactoring to remove reliance on Win32. Then what are they using instead? Whatever it is, how does it provide the basic functions? Does it call into native NT API directly? Part of the MinWin project was to extricate Win32 from the kernel and have a true separation. What? Win32 is not part of the kernel, it's a layer on top of the native NT API (or VMM32, if you remember Win9x...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Disassembly/Microsoft_Windows https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Disassembly/Microsoft_Wind...
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      > Then what are they using instead? Whatever it is, how does it provide the basic functions? Does it call into native NT API directly? They use a PAL, each platform has it's own PAL and the Windows Kernel as two (WinRT and Win32). https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-microsoft-is-taking-on-the-cross-platform-challenge-with-office/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-microsoft-is-taking-on-the... > What? Win32 is not part of the kernel, it's a layer on top of the native NT API (or VMM32, if you remember Win9x...) It wasn't. When WinNT hit the scene in the 90s there was definitely a distinction between Userland and Kernel space but by XP there was so much encroachment. MinWin was the creation of horizontal layers of separation. https://betanews.com/2009/12/02/mark-russinovich-on-minwin-the-new-core-of-windows/ https://betanews.com/2009/12/02/mark-russinovich-on-minwin-t...
      - userbinator 8y ago
        Both those articles are heavy on marketing and light on detail, but if the PAL they're talking about is anything like the one described here... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/12/how-an-old-drawbridge-helped-microsoft-bring-sql-server-to-linux/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/12/how-a... ...the "PAL" is basically the Win32 libraries with a different interface on the other side (in some ways, like WINE), so no, Win32 is not going away.

chrismorgan 8y ago

Amusingly, I’m the one that filed https://github.com/zserge/webview/issues/85 https://github.com/zserge/webview/issues/85!