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> Their word to collectively describe foreigners is... No it's not. bar bar is not directly similar to bla bla, except for the repetition. The phonetics can't

> Their word to collectively describe foreigners is... No it's not. bar bar is not directly similar to bla bla, except for the repetition. The phonetics can't be glossed over. bleh- is a reconstructed proto-indo-european root (also bhle) meaning to swell, and if that isn't clear enough on its own consider the descendent to blow, German blasen and compare that to bubble, german Blase or to bubble, German blubbern in the sense to swall, blurb, bla blah. Surely that seems sound immitative anyway. I don't know a root for "bar", but consider German brabbeln in the same sense, which looks to have a semitic influence. This might be sound immitatitive for all I know. Anyhow I find more interesting barde (the singer) compared to persian barde (slave), if you think of enslaved eunuch singers as a semantic link. And then consider that foreigners became enslaved often enough. I mean, they literally cut young boys balls off, like with cattle. Because of taboo and social stigma, I think such a connection would not survive very long. But I know very little about Persian, so this is entirely speculative. The singing barde sense has an entirely different root in PIE, but beyond that, who knows? There's no timeline for PIE and internal reconstruction is, well, I'm not going to try it here. Anyhow, a semantic relation between slaves and praise, or at least a positive connotation can be observed in persian. Slavery like racism really seem to be deeply ingrained in culture. There's also barb as in barb-wire, cognate to beard, with a different root given by scholars (celtic bardos, < PIE gwerhd), but who knows. I find the bearded, unshaven ones* as description for barbarians kind of entertaining. In the same sense, incivil ruffian in allusion to slavery I have to guess that a barbarian might well be a slaver, slave trader. Do I need to mention "Babel" related to incomprehensible language? Also, I cannot find a root for brat beyond Old English, but I wouldn't find a connection surprising, compared to the etymology of Ger. Mädchen (girl, compare, maid, house maid, maiden) and also perhaps boy, girl, garcon (I am not quite sure). Consider that by archaic social norms, women were treated as slaves of the patriarch, father or brother, e.g. literally sold of if money was tight, in the worst case. So, the etymology of bar bar is inconclusive from where I am standing, but "sound immitative" is hardly ever convincing for words with a long history. PS: to the b/w question, compare that to dark or shiny, considering some supposed etymologic theories of aryan (e.g. golden or noble), and that the Median Empire reached into the area of modern greece, or that it's not even clear where the Persians came from before they reached mesopotamia.

coldtea 8y ago
>No it's not. bar bar is not directly similar to bla bla, except for the repetition. The phonetics can't be glossed over. I didn't say that bar-bar is "blah". Just that bar-bar is a vocalization of foreigners speaking, like blah itself is a vocalization of someone speaking. The rest of the details are not really relevant to the more specific (and less about the word barbaric or blah and their etymology and phonetics) thing that what I was saying -- which was simply that "barbari", the ancient Greek word for foreigners meant literally people speaking a different language (whether the vocalization was formed in Ancient Greece or PIE is not really relevant. It was still understood as "foreign speakers" by ancient Greek and only later took the "culturally foreign or not as developed" as a connotation). >I don't know a root for "bar", but consider German brabbeln in the same sense, which looks to have a semitic influence. This might be sound immitatitive for all I know. It is "sound imitating", as a vocalization. "The term originates from the Greek: βάρβαρος (barbaros pl. βάρβαροι barbaroi), which in turn originates from the incomprehensible languages of early Anatolian nations that were heard by the Greeks as "bar..bar.." In Ancient Greece, the Greeks used the term towards those who didn't speak Greek and follow classical Greek customs" (Wikipedia)
- posterboy 8y ago
  Yes, you are right, there was a non sequitur as my mind raced ahead. The point is: neither is bar bar the only term, nor is your rather neutral translation "foreigner" very apt -- minor inconsistencies that never the less prompted me to respond. I simply find it very unlikely that an onomatopoeia would spontaneously achieve word quality with suffixes, inflections and all that jazz. Classical Greek and Latin are preceded by a long pre history of fractured dialects and, well, disputes over territory. By the time they became somewhat standardized, a lot of meaning was ignored and conflated. I don't understand how you can find that irrelevant to the origin of a word. I do understand that you feel somewhat overrun. I didn't mean to discount the theory, just noting that it is (likely) not the full story. By the way I found that ''to boil'' is derived from a root bher-, rather close to bhel-. Certainly boiling creates bubbles. All the while warmth is a positive term. Also, to bear'' comes from a similar root. And those d not seem to be purely PIE innovations. Compare for example https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1 (Arab. "karra" - 1. ''to murmur, bubble, gurgle''; but also 2. ''to fall, sink, prostrate oneself'' ... "to fall at somebody's feet?") (Pers. "xar" - 1. ''donkey, fool''; 2. ''idiotic''; 3. ''big, great'') https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%D8%B1 (Arab. "jarra" - ''to pull, draw, stretch, rob, cause, drive slowly, pasture freely'' and then some) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1 (Arab. 1. "hurr" - ''free, unimpeded, set free, born free, noble, unmixed''; but also 2. "harr" - ''heat, burning'') https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%DA%91 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%DA%91 (Urdu: root, foudation, but also stupid, lifeless) Interestingly, I found ''donkey'' and ''big, great'' are supposed to be near homophone in old Egyptian as well https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EA%9C%A5%EA%9C%A3#Egyptian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EA%9C%A5%EA%9C%A3#Egyptian. The way I heard the story of ''barbar'', Germanic Vandals called the folks on the African north coast Barbarians, also because of the language. Today still called Berbers. I am aware that Slavic languages follow a similar paradigm, Czechs call Germans "nemcie" - ''mutes''. At the same time, the origin of the word slave from Slavs is contested, so what do I know. Nevertheless, you might know the words ''Habiru''. Consider that in context. Also, "hurr" above reminded me of "Hurrian", but that's barely a hunch.

coldtea 8y ago

>No it's not. bar bar is not directly similar to bla bla, except for the repetition. The phonetics can't be glossed over. I didn't say that bar-bar is "blah". Just that bar-bar is a vocalization of foreigners speaking, like blah itself is a vocalization of someone speaking. The rest of the details are not really relevant to the more specific (and less about the word barbaric or blah and their etymology and phonetics) thing that what I was saying -- which was simply that "barbari", the ancient Greek word for foreigners meant literally people speaking a different language (whether the vocalization was formed in Ancient Greece or PIE is not really relevant. It was still understood as "foreign speakers" by ancient Greek and only later took the "culturally foreign or not as developed" as a connotation). >I don't know a root for "bar", but consider German brabbeln in the same sense, which looks to have a semitic influence. This might be sound immitatitive for all I know. It is "sound imitating", as a vocalization. "The term originates from the Greek: βάρβαρος (barbaros pl. βάρβαροι barbaroi), which in turn originates from the incomprehensible languages of early Anatolian nations that were heard by the Greeks as "bar..bar.." In Ancient Greece, the Greeks used the term towards those who didn't speak Greek and follow classical Greek customs" (Wikipedia)

posterboy 8y ago
Yes, you are right, there was a non sequitur as my mind raced ahead. The point is: neither is bar bar the only term, nor is your rather neutral translation "foreigner" very apt -- minor inconsistencies that never the less prompted me to respond. I simply find it very unlikely that an onomatopoeia would spontaneously achieve word quality with suffixes, inflections and all that jazz. Classical Greek and Latin are preceded by a long pre history of fractured dialects and, well, disputes over territory. By the time they became somewhat standardized, a lot of meaning was ignored and conflated. I don't understand how you can find that irrelevant to the origin of a word. I do understand that you feel somewhat overrun. I didn't mean to discount the theory, just noting that it is (likely) not the full story. By the way I found that ''to boil'' is derived from a root bher-, rather close to bhel-. Certainly boiling creates bubbles. All the while warmth is a positive term. Also, to bear'' comes from a similar root. And those d not seem to be purely PIE innovations. Compare for example https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%B1 (Arab. "karra" - 1. ''to murmur, bubble, gurgle''; but also 2. ''to fall, sink, prostrate oneself'' ... "to fall at somebody's feet?") (Pers. "xar" - 1. ''donkey, fool''; 2. ''idiotic''; 3. ''big, great'') https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%D8%B1 (Arab. "jarra" - ''to pull, draw, stretch, rob, cause, drive slowly, pasture freely'' and then some) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1 (Arab. 1. "hurr" - ''free, unimpeded, set free, born free, noble, unmixed''; but also 2. "harr" - ''heat, burning'') https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%DA%91 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AC%DA%91 (Urdu: root, foudation, but also stupid, lifeless) Interestingly, I found ''donkey'' and ''big, great'' are supposed to be near homophone in old Egyptian as well https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EA%9C%A5%EA%9C%A3#Egyptian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EA%9C%A5%EA%9C%A3#Egyptian. The way I heard the story of ''barbar'', Germanic Vandals called the folks on the African north coast Barbarians, also because of the language. Today still called Berbers. I am aware that Slavic languages follow a similar paradigm, Czechs call Germans "nemcie" - ''mutes''. At the same time, the origin of the word slave from Slavs is contested, so what do I know. Nevertheless, you might know the words ''Habiru''. Consider that in context. Also, "hurr" above reminded me of "Hurrian", but that's barely a hunch.