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> cultural appropriation The idea that someone can "own" a culture is patently absurd. Everything we do is a hopeless mix of cultures. Every culture is influen

> cultural appropriation The idea that someone can "own" a culture is patently absurd. Everything we do is a hopeless mix of cultures. Every culture is influenced by other cultures. It's like trying to stake out Mississippi water in the Gulf of Mexico. And as a direct result of "Graceland", I've bought a number of CDs from African artists who I'd never have sought out otherwise.

daseiner1 8y ago
Yeah imagine people telling Picasso that he couldn’t make African-influenced art. Turns out his work actually led lots of people (myself included)to take African primitive art seriously.
- theoh 8y ago
  It's a thankless job to try to convince anyone that what Picasso did was appropriation. Notoriously, he himself said (translated) "African art? Never heard of it." Cultural appropriation hurts when it's done by someone in a position of relative power to amplify their own voice, rather than allow the foreign culture in question to be heard. This idea is not a politically radical form of thought policing, it's just good democratic practice and respect.
  - mcphage 8y ago
    > Cultural appropriation hurts when it's done by someone in a position of relative power to amplify their own voice, rather than allow the foreign culture in question to be heard. Well, given how many people became familiar with South African music—and Ladysmith Black Mambazo in particular—through Paul Simon's music, that seems to be a pretty good description of what he did.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Another example would be Led Zeppelin being inspired by blues artists on another continent. That fits the definition of "cultural appropriation", but do you seriously want to denounce Zep for that? Music is so rich and diverse and beautiful and ever-changing because of copying/blending styles from other cultures and genres. (Those blues artists would be long forgotten if not for Zep, the Stones, Eric Clapton, and others copying/blending it.)
      - theoh 8y ago
        These are fine counterexamples. The existence of instances of borrowing that nobody objects to doesn't mean that the problem of cultural appropriation doesn't exist. It's a question of nuance, on a case-by-case basis. It's not about something "fitting the definition" of cultural appropriation, it's about whether someone is hurt by it e.g. by having their voice or agency denied. It's a subjective thing. Showing me a piece of software with no bugs doesn't disprove the existence of other, buggy, software...
        mcphage 8y ago
        > It's a question of nuance, on a case-by-case basis. I agree, although I don't think "nuance" or "case-by-case basis" have ever been used in accusations of appropriation.
        theoh 8y ago
        Well, a Google search finds a number of articles/posts on the topic which make the observation that more nuance is needed in the conversation. So you are probably right that it is typically lacking, though the word nuance isn't totally absent from the discussion.
- sampl 8y ago
  > Turns out his work actually led lots of people (myself included) to take African primitive art seriously. Maybe the real problem is not taking African art seriously in the first place (not until a European starts making it, that is).
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    How can someone take something they've never heard of seriously? Have you heard and evaluated all musical styles from all cultures? I'm sure nobody has - do you regard that as a real problem?
DoreenMichele 8y ago
Something I blogged about not too long ago: We bitch when white men write only about white male culture as that is exclusionary. We also bitch about cultural appropriation if they write about anything else. We also also bitch about how evil and terrible it is if other cultures feel forced to put their culture on display to try to make money. Apparently, nothing makes us happy.
sampl 8y ago
> Everything we do is a hopeless mix of cultures... It's like trying to stake out Mississippi water in the Gulf of Mexico. Cultures influence each other, but it’s silly to argue they don’t have a meaningful geographic origin. Italians are right to take pride in Italian food. Would you say a carnitas taco is equally Mexican and Chinese? Cultures are a real thing, usually tied to real places and real people. Pretending otherwise is approbation, but it’s also just rude and incorrect.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > silly to argue they don’t have a meaningful geographic origin I'm not arguing that, nor am I arguing that one shouldn't take pride in one's culture. > Cultures are a real thing, usually tied to real places and real people. Pretending otherwise is approbation That is a new definition of appropriation. For example, the "walk like an Egyptian" dance is now considered cultural appropriation, yet it explicitly says it is Egyptian. It's just absurd.

daseiner1 8y ago

Yeah imagine people telling Picasso that he couldn’t make African-influenced art. Turns out his work actually led lots of people (myself included)to take African primitive art seriously.

theoh 8y ago
It's a thankless job to try to convince anyone that what Picasso did was appropriation. Notoriously, he himself said (translated) "African art? Never heard of it." Cultural appropriation hurts when it's done by someone in a position of relative power to amplify their own voice, rather than allow the foreign culture in question to be heard. This idea is not a politically radical form of thought policing, it's just good democratic practice and respect.
- mcphage 8y ago
  > Cultural appropriation hurts when it's done by someone in a position of relative power to amplify their own voice, rather than allow the foreign culture in question to be heard. Well, given how many people became familiar with South African music—and Ladysmith Black Mambazo in particular—through Paul Simon's music, that seems to be a pretty good description of what he did.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Another example would be Led Zeppelin being inspired by blues artists on another continent. That fits the definition of "cultural appropriation", but do you seriously want to denounce Zep for that? Music is so rich and diverse and beautiful and ever-changing because of copying/blending styles from other cultures and genres. (Those blues artists would be long forgotten if not for Zep, the Stones, Eric Clapton, and others copying/blending it.)
    - theoh 8y ago
      These are fine counterexamples. The existence of instances of borrowing that nobody objects to doesn't mean that the problem of cultural appropriation doesn't exist. It's a question of nuance, on a case-by-case basis. It's not about something "fitting the definition" of cultural appropriation, it's about whether someone is hurt by it e.g. by having their voice or agency denied. It's a subjective thing. Showing me a piece of software with no bugs doesn't disprove the existence of other, buggy, software...
      - mcphage 8y ago
        > It's a question of nuance, on a case-by-case basis. I agree, although I don't think "nuance" or "case-by-case basis" have ever been used in accusations of appropriation.
        theoh 8y ago
        Well, a Google search finds a number of articles/posts on the topic which make the observation that more nuance is needed in the conversation. So you are probably right that it is typically lacking, though the word nuance isn't totally absent from the discussion.
sampl 8y ago
> Turns out his work actually led lots of people (myself included) to take African primitive art seriously. Maybe the real problem is not taking African art seriously in the first place (not until a European starts making it, that is).
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  How can someone take something they've never heard of seriously? Have you heard and evaluated all musical styles from all cultures? I'm sure nobody has - do you regard that as a real problem?

DoreenMichele 8y ago

Something I blogged about not too long ago: We bitch when white men write only about white male culture as that is exclusionary. We also bitch about cultural appropriation if they write about anything else. We also also bitch about how evil and terrible it is if other cultures feel forced to put their culture on display to try to make money. Apparently, nothing makes us happy.

sampl 8y ago

> Everything we do is a hopeless mix of cultures... It's like trying to stake out Mississippi water in the Gulf of Mexico. Cultures influence each other, but it’s silly to argue they don’t have a meaningful geographic origin. Italians are right to take pride in Italian food. Would you say a carnitas taco is equally Mexican and Chinese? Cultures are a real thing, usually tied to real places and real people. Pretending otherwise is approbation, but it’s also just rude and incorrect.

skookumchuck 8y ago
> silly to argue they don’t have a meaningful geographic origin I'm not arguing that, nor am I arguing that one shouldn't take pride in one's culture. > Cultures are a real thing, usually tied to real places and real people. Pretending otherwise is approbation That is a new definition of appropriation. For example, the "walk like an Egyptian" dance is now considered cultural appropriation, yet it explicitly says it is Egyptian. It's just absurd.