5 ms·

I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings, writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep current) a

I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings, writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep current) and writing documents. I type 120 WPM and live and die by my keyboard. Most of the time I am using an external keyboard but when I travel or work flexibly away from my house, it's all on the butterfly keyboard. After a year, several keys were useless, - enter ;, j and e. They would stick and repeat the character too much, or not recognize a hit at all. Like a good Apple fan boy I always purchase Apple care so I was able to send it in for repair but being without a machine for three days was a non-starter. So, I ordered a Lenovo T480S, installed Linux and prepared an environment for when my MBP 2016 touchbar unit went back to Apple. My MBP has been back from Apple for two months now and I have yet to boot it.... The keyboard on this Lenovo is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) And, its not just me we've had 4 MBP Touchbar retinas have keys fail around the 9mos to 1yr mark. One 3 of them, Apple gave us grief as if it was standard "wear and tear." Uh, ya, these $4K aluminum rigs are going to be around dust, and humans have hair ... and... well its on you to make a more resilient key switch Apple... As for me, sticking with Lenovo box from here on out.

sedachv 8y ago
> The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.
- syshum 8y ago
  >>>It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else. Apple is all marketing and no substance
  - lkrubner 8y ago
    > Apple is all marketing and no substance I think it would be correct to say that this is what Apple has slowly become. In the past, it was clearly innovative. The original Mac was incredibly innovative in 1984. The iPhone was innovative back in 2007. But Apple has not had a new idea in the last 10 years, and it has shifted from technology innovation to marketing. Nowadays, it lags in almost every segment, but it still has great marketing, and its reputation has not yet caught up with the sad reality of 2018. Apple also has a mountain of cash. They could invest in innovative new technologies. But they won't. Partly that's because of the way Tim Cook's salary has been structured. Following a somewhat superficial and short-term understanding of the phrase "share-holder value", his pay is partly based on how much he can boost the stock price. And he's got no real incentive to engage in a massive R&D program, since the results would only pay off in the long run, after he had retired. I'm currently using a MacBook Pro. I'd like to stick with Mac's, but that decision is very difficult to justify right now. For less money I could get a great Linux laptop.
    - wilsonnb 8y ago
      If the iPhone counts as a new idea then I don't see why the Apple Watch doesn't. The airpods should probably count as well.
      - lmilcin 8y ago
        Q1 2018 revenue: iPhone: 61.5bn USD, others 5.5bn USD (Apple TV, Apple Watch, Beats products, iPod touch and Apple-branded and third-party accessories.) Even if it is a novel idea it is still pretty insignificant for the bottom line.
gjmacd 8y ago
Oddly enough, I love this keyboard. I like it a lot better than any other keyboard I've used on many laptops I've owned.
- tzakrajs 8y ago
  People complain about the short throw and the bottoming out but they are typing too damned hard. I find that by exerting smaller amounts of force with less travel that I can type on the butterfly keyboard without triggering my RSI symptoms, by contrast my Cherry MX Brown with double o rings requires so much physicality to get work done that it hurts after extended use.
roryisok 8y ago
That's great to hear because I'm about to buy a T480s and my main reason is I've heard such great things about the keyboard!
lmilcin 8y ago
I have been using Thinkpads exclusively since T40 was released in 2003 and the main reason was always the keyboard.
lowbloodsugar 8y ago
I just bought a used 2013 MBP, because why not? It's not like a new one has more RAM, or a bigger SSD, and new cpu is only 16% faster. But it does have a shitty keyboard and no function keys. Also, $900 vs $2,599+tax.
pasbesoin 8y ago
The Lenovo T25 has an "old-style" Lenovo/IBM ThinkPad keyboard. Separately, there are do-it-yourself modifications to stick one onto e.g. a -30 model ThinkPad. I've held off due to the circa $2000 price (it's been a tough winter, financially), one generation older tech stack, and still somewhat under-performant display. But I really hope to pick one up before they're gone. Even this ThinkPad "chicklet" keyboard I'm typing on doesn't compare. I wish -- hope -- Lenovo might continue to include one such model in the lineup, each year (T25 -- 25 for twenty-fifth anniversary). For people who really rely on heavy -- and comfortable, fast, accurate, reliable -- use of the keyboard, there is no comparison. My W520's keyboard is pretty fantastic. I just need something that travels better (doesn't have to be a "wafer") and has longer battery life.
ramensea 8y ago
I'm sorta in the same boat, but after Google announced Chromebooks will be getting first party support for Linux apps that is tempting me. I occasionally work on Linux, but I would love something more polished like ChromeOS.
- sebastianavina 8y ago
  just give me emacs and a decent terminal with ssh and git on chromeos and I could live on it.

sedachv 8y ago

> The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.

syshum 8y ago
>>>It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else. Apple is all marketing and no substance
- lkrubner 8y ago
  > Apple is all marketing and no substance I think it would be correct to say that this is what Apple has slowly become. In the past, it was clearly innovative. The original Mac was incredibly innovative in 1984. The iPhone was innovative back in 2007. But Apple has not had a new idea in the last 10 years, and it has shifted from technology innovation to marketing. Nowadays, it lags in almost every segment, but it still has great marketing, and its reputation has not yet caught up with the sad reality of 2018. Apple also has a mountain of cash. They could invest in innovative new technologies. But they won't. Partly that's because of the way Tim Cook's salary has been structured. Following a somewhat superficial and short-term understanding of the phrase "share-holder value", his pay is partly based on how much he can boost the stock price. And he's got no real incentive to engage in a massive R&D program, since the results would only pay off in the long run, after he had retired. I'm currently using a MacBook Pro. I'd like to stick with Mac's, but that decision is very difficult to justify right now. For less money I could get a great Linux laptop.
  - wilsonnb 8y ago
    If the iPhone counts as a new idea then I don't see why the Apple Watch doesn't. The airpods should probably count as well.
    - lmilcin 8y ago
      Q1 2018 revenue: iPhone: 61.5bn USD, others 5.5bn USD (Apple TV, Apple Watch, Beats products, iPod touch and Apple-branded and third-party accessories.) Even if it is a novel idea it is still pretty insignificant for the bottom line.

gjmacd 8y ago

Oddly enough, I love this keyboard. I like it a lot better than any other keyboard I've used on many laptops I've owned.

tzakrajs 8y ago
People complain about the short throw and the bottoming out but they are typing too damned hard. I find that by exerting smaller amounts of force with less travel that I can type on the butterfly keyboard without triggering my RSI symptoms, by contrast my Cherry MX Brown with double o rings requires so much physicality to get work done that it hurts after extended use.

roryisok 8y ago

That's great to hear because I'm about to buy a T480s and my main reason is I've heard such great things about the keyboard!

lmilcin 8y ago

I have been using Thinkpads exclusively since T40 was released in 2003 and the main reason was always the keyboard.

lowbloodsugar 8y ago

I just bought a used 2013 MBP, because why not? It's not like a new one has more RAM, or a bigger SSD, and new cpu is only 16% faster. But it does have a shitty keyboard and no function keys. Also, $900 vs $2,599+tax.

pasbesoin 8y ago

The Lenovo T25 has an "old-style" Lenovo/IBM ThinkPad keyboard. Separately, there are do-it-yourself modifications to stick one onto e.g. a -30 model ThinkPad. I've held off due to the circa $2000 price (it's been a tough winter, financially), one generation older tech stack, and still somewhat under-performant display. But I really hope to pick one up before they're gone. Even this ThinkPad "chicklet" keyboard I'm typing on doesn't compare. I wish -- hope -- Lenovo might continue to include one such model in the lineup, each year (T25 -- 25 for twenty-fifth anniversary). For people who really rely on heavy -- and comfortable, fast, accurate, reliable -- use of the keyboard, there is no comparison. My W520's keyboard is pretty fantastic. I just need something that travels better (doesn't have to be a "wafer") and has longer battery life.

ramensea 8y ago

I'm sorta in the same boat, but after Google announced Chromebooks will be getting first party support for Linux apps that is tempting me. I occasionally work on Linux, but I would love something more polished like ChromeOS.

sebastianavina 8y ago
just give me emacs and a decent terminal with ssh and git on chromeos and I could live on it.