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I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The keyboard is

I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The keyboard is always the biggest complaint. I even made our company change its onboarding process to offer the option of buying a Windows laptop and installing some distro of Linux on it instead of just giving everyone a Mac (which they and the rest of Silicon Valley have been doing for years). I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly easy!) Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work machines.

justinator 8y ago
Do y'all just work on laptops, or do you usually plug in the laptop to an external monitor/keyboard/screen, then use the laptop solely when in meetings/away from your desk? I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time. I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  > I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what? I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
  - justinator 8y ago
    "typing" (banging) on them too hard. I have very large, very strong hands, I guess. The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something? It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.
- artursapek 8y ago
  It is a remote company; our devs are all over the world. So people travel and move around a lot, and as a result use their laptops “naked” a lot of the time. One guy on my team likes to set up a desk in a forest and work outside most of the day using cellular internet. Maybe it matters less in a co-located space where everyone is at a desk all day.
  - justinator 8y ago
    Nice. Yeah, I can't ever seeing using the new Macbook 15" remotely. It seems so very fragile. I've taken my 2012, 2013, and 2015 Macbooks on full on offroad bicycle trips without a problem, but the current crop just seems to tip into "too wimpy" territory.
adrianpike 8y ago
Heyo, what Windows laptops are you providing these days? I'm possibly going to jump ship and it's about time to get a new laptop.
- artursapek 8y ago
  Thinkpads are #1. System76 and the XPS 13s are also a hit.
  - wcfields 8y ago
    There’s been a half-dozen LVFS / System76 drama threads[1] in the past week alone. Despite whatever your feelings are on BIOS, the general consensuous from S76 owners are the laptops aren’t that great. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845
    - artursapek 8y ago
      It's a newer thing on our team for sure. Time will tell if System76 are a good choice.
- raesene9 8y ago
  The laptops I see most often mentioned as competitors to the MBP are Lenovo X1 Carbon Dell XPS 13 (inc. the developer edition which ships with Linux) HP Elitebook 840
- spamizbad 8y ago
  My advice: for less drama, stick to ones with Intel graphics only. I've seen people have great luck with the Thinkpad T and X series and Dell XPS 13. I use a Dell XPS 15 with a Dell TB16 dock but I'm not sure I would recommend this configuration to everyone: The machine and dock are very picky about what kernel I run, and I can't get the combo working correctly with suspend/resume on Ubuntu 18.04 (sticking with 17.10+kernel 4.15.18 for now). WiFi also needs to be manually reconnected every hour or so.
wilsonnb 8y ago
People are so hyperbolic about this whole issue. They have one bad generation of keyboards and people declare that they are selling eye candy, aren't a computer company anymore, etc etc.
- nvarsj 8y ago
  This was the last good MBP keyboard: https://goo.gl/images/ZDC9hq https://goo.gl/images/ZDC9hq. The aluminum style keyboard was a big step back functionally. It was obvious it was done purely for aesthetics. And it's just gotten worse.
- artursapek 8y ago
  They are definitely focusing on form over function these days.

justinator 8y ago

Do y'all just work on laptops, or do you usually plug in the laptop to an external monitor/keyboard/screen, then use the laptop solely when in meetings/away from your desk? I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time. I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
> I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what? I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
- justinator 8y ago
  "typing" (banging) on them too hard. I have very large, very strong hands, I guess. The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something? It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.
artursapek 8y ago
It is a remote company; our devs are all over the world. So people travel and move around a lot, and as a result use their laptops “naked” a lot of the time. One guy on my team likes to set up a desk in a forest and work outside most of the day using cellular internet. Maybe it matters less in a co-located space where everyone is at a desk all day.
- justinator 8y ago
  Nice. Yeah, I can't ever seeing using the new Macbook 15" remotely. It seems so very fragile. I've taken my 2012, 2013, and 2015 Macbooks on full on offroad bicycle trips without a problem, but the current crop just seems to tip into "too wimpy" territory.

adrianpike 8y ago

Heyo, what Windows laptops are you providing these days? I'm possibly going to jump ship and it's about time to get a new laptop.

artursapek 8y ago
Thinkpads are #1. System76 and the XPS 13s are also a hit.
- wcfields 8y ago
  There’s been a half-dozen LVFS / System76 drama threads[1] in the past week alone. Despite whatever your feelings are on BIOS, the general consensuous from S76 owners are the laptops aren’t that great. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845
  - artursapek 8y ago
    It's a newer thing on our team for sure. Time will tell if System76 are a good choice.
raesene9 8y ago
The laptops I see most often mentioned as competitors to the MBP are Lenovo X1 Carbon Dell XPS 13 (inc. the developer edition which ships with Linux) HP Elitebook 840
spamizbad 8y ago
My advice: for less drama, stick to ones with Intel graphics only. I've seen people have great luck with the Thinkpad T and X series and Dell XPS 13. I use a Dell XPS 15 with a Dell TB16 dock but I'm not sure I would recommend this configuration to everyone: The machine and dock are very picky about what kernel I run, and I can't get the combo working correctly with suspend/resume on Ubuntu 18.04 (sticking with 17.10+kernel 4.15.18 for now). WiFi also needs to be manually reconnected every hour or so.

wilsonnb 8y ago

People are so hyperbolic about this whole issue. They have one bad generation of keyboards and people declare that they are selling eye candy, aren't a computer company anymore, etc etc.

nvarsj 8y ago
This was the last good MBP keyboard: https://goo.gl/images/ZDC9hq https://goo.gl/images/ZDC9hq. The aluminum style keyboard was a big step back functionally. It was obvious it was done purely for aesthetics. And it's just gotten worse.
artursapek 8y ago
They are definitely focusing on form over function these days.