4 ms·

If there's one thing pretty constant in human history, it's that we do terrible things to each other. Always need to be on guard for this. But don't overlook th

If there's one thing pretty constant in human history, it's that we do terrible things to each other. Always need to be on guard for this. But don't overlook the good we do. We (the United States) did end slavery, and then segregation, at a huge and bloody cost.

forapurpose 8y ago
I agree, and I'd also point to women becoming full members of society, as individuals, citizens, and workers, after thousands of years of human history (though with much work remaining). But let's also remember that fixing an evil eventually means that we are committing an evil repeatedly in the interim. Generations of African-Americans lived and died under slavery and segregation; that it was stopped eventually did them no good, and more generations continue to face discrimination right now. It's similar to when a person is freed after decades of imprisonment for an unjust conviction: It's better than leaving them in prison, but a great evil was committed. MLK put it well:[0] I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate ... who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." [0] Letter From a Birmingham Jail by MLK, the most valuable words you can read about the subject of oppression and the response to it: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
- mncharity 8y ago
  > But let's also remember that fixing an evil eventually means that we are committing an evil repeatedly in the interim. Tick, tick - 4 people were just born. 250 people will be born in the next minute. 360k people will be born today. And also tomorrow. 2.5M this week. 130M this year. In about 6 years, almost all of them will hit school. School. Schools that are pervasively wretched. Can you make them less wretched? You have six years to change the world. For each 4 years your improvements are delayed, your window misses half a billion people. Good luck. Tick, tock. One thing I took away from working on One Laptop Per Child, is that few appreciate the breathtakingly high cost of time.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    Very well put. And don't forget those kids in school right now. Do we just write off everyone in high school, for example?
    - mncharity 8y ago
      > don't forget those kids in school right now People seem to have difficulty thinking about, and empathizing with, large numbers of people. The "one death is a tragedy, but ten thousand deaths is a statistic" observation. So it's a challenge to craft descriptions that provide some sense of scale, while retaining an emotional connection. Narrowing scope can help.
tptacek 8y ago
You mean, we ended it in the United States. Other countries ended slavery before we did.
- civilitty 8y ago
  And it's still a global problem today, with many still enslaved around the world
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Here we're talking about the chattel slavery of Africans as a labor force, not the general concept of slavery.
- atomi 8y ago
  For some context on this as it pertains to the New World check out Bartolomé de las Casas.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > You mean, we ended it in the United States. Other countries ended slavery before we did. Sort of? The major European powers "ended" it at home by outsourcing it to their colonies. It's not like Britain, France, Belgium, etc. weren't still practicing explicit chattel slavery well into the 20th century.
- Melchizedek 8y ago
  And others ended it much later. Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1962 (but in practice it still continued after that).
refurb 8y ago
And what's acceptable changes over time. I have no doubt that 100 years from now they'll look back and think many things that we feel are acceptable are immoral and shameful.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  Such as the treatment of most of the animals we raise for food.
  - leesalminen 8y ago
    Or, you know, people?
    - arippberger 8y ago
      We're raising people for food?!
- MadSudaca 8y ago
  Maybe in 100 years we'll be experiencing such extreme hardships that we'll regress our values to more primitive forms.
- DataWorker 8y ago
  I’m doubtful. Abolition was the direct result of Christian fundamentalism, perhaps even zealotry. I don’t see the world moving back in that direction.
  - jonnybgood 8y ago
    Weren’t the most outspoken abolitionists Quakers? They’re far from Christian fundamentalists.
    - DataWorker 8y ago
      How so?
pessimizer 8y ago
We didn't end segregation, we ended legally enforced segregation. I went to a segregated school from K-6 (one white kid, whose only living parent was black), and that was in the 80s, when busing was pretty active. I'm sure many of you who live in the US live in segregated neighborhoods, and attended segregated schools. What's strange is the common insistence that segregation has ended, and what's remaining is somehow by the choice of the participants, even the ones who lose out: the strangeness is that that argument is no different from the arguments made during legal segregation, when the claim was that the law was just a representation and reflection of values held in common. If today you stood on the corner of the block I grew up on in Chicago for a year, you'd never see a white person.
- jpster 8y ago
  >what's remaining is somehow by the choice of the participants It’s a shame that this is a widely accepted explanation for the segregated neighborhoods we live in today. There were proactive policies — some promoted by the federal government — that made it this way. http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st-louis-conference-celebrates-50-years-fair-housing-act http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st-louis-conference-cele...

forapurpose 8y ago

I agree, and I'd also point to women becoming full members of society, as individuals, citizens, and workers, after thousands of years of human history (though with much work remaining). But let's also remember that fixing an evil eventually means that we are committing an evil repeatedly in the interim. Generations of African-Americans lived and died under slavery and segregation; that it was stopped eventually did them no good, and more generations continue to face discrimination right now. It's similar to when a person is freed after decades of imprisonment for an unjust conviction: It's better than leaving them in prison, but a great evil was committed. MLK put it well:[0] I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate ... who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." [0] Letter From a Birmingham Jail by MLK, the most valuable words you can read about the subject of oppression and the response to it: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

mncharity 8y ago
> But let's also remember that fixing an evil eventually means that we are committing an evil repeatedly in the interim. Tick, tick - 4 people were just born. 250 people will be born in the next minute. 360k people will be born today. And also tomorrow. 2.5M this week. 130M this year. In about 6 years, almost all of them will hit school. School. Schools that are pervasively wretched. Can you make them less wretched? You have six years to change the world. For each 4 years your improvements are delayed, your window misses half a billion people. Good luck. Tick, tock. One thing I took away from working on One Laptop Per Child, is that few appreciate the breathtakingly high cost of time.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  Very well put. And don't forget those kids in school right now. Do we just write off everyone in high school, for example?
  - mncharity 8y ago
    > don't forget those kids in school right now People seem to have difficulty thinking about, and empathizing with, large numbers of people. The "one death is a tragedy, but ten thousand deaths is a statistic" observation. So it's a challenge to craft descriptions that provide some sense of scale, while retaining an emotional connection. Narrowing scope can help.

tptacek 8y ago

You mean, we ended it in the United States. Other countries ended slavery before we did.

civilitty 8y ago
And it's still a global problem today, with many still enslaved around the world
- tptacek 8y ago
  Here we're talking about the chattel slavery of Africans as a labor force, not the general concept of slavery.
atomi 8y ago
For some context on this as it pertains to the New World check out Bartolomé de las Casas.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chimeracoder 8y ago
> You mean, we ended it in the United States. Other countries ended slavery before we did. Sort of? The major European powers "ended" it at home by outsourcing it to their colonies. It's not like Britain, France, Belgium, etc. weren't still practicing explicit chattel slavery well into the 20th century.
Melchizedek 8y ago
And others ended it much later. Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1962 (but in practice it still continued after that).

refurb 8y ago

And what's acceptable changes over time. I have no doubt that 100 years from now they'll look back and think many things that we feel are acceptable are immoral and shameful.

acjohnson55 8y ago
Such as the treatment of most of the animals we raise for food.
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Or, you know, people?
  - arippberger 8y ago
    We're raising people for food?!
MadSudaca 8y ago
Maybe in 100 years we'll be experiencing such extreme hardships that we'll regress our values to more primitive forms.
DataWorker 8y ago
I’m doubtful. Abolition was the direct result of Christian fundamentalism, perhaps even zealotry. I don’t see the world moving back in that direction.
- jonnybgood 8y ago
  Weren’t the most outspoken abolitionists Quakers? They’re far from Christian fundamentalists.
  - DataWorker 8y ago
    How so?

pessimizer 8y ago

We didn't end segregation, we ended legally enforced segregation. I went to a segregated school from K-6 (one white kid, whose only living parent was black), and that was in the 80s, when busing was pretty active. I'm sure many of you who live in the US live in segregated neighborhoods, and attended segregated schools. What's strange is the common insistence that segregation has ended, and what's remaining is somehow by the choice of the participants, even the ones who lose out: the strangeness is that that argument is no different from the arguments made during legal segregation, when the claim was that the law was just a representation and reflection of values held in common. If today you stood on the corner of the block I grew up on in Chicago for a year, you'd never see a white person.

jpster 8y ago
>what's remaining is somehow by the choice of the participants It’s a shame that this is a widely accepted explanation for the segregated neighborhoods we live in today. There were proactive policies — some promoted by the federal government — that made it this way. http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st-louis-conference-celebrates-50-years-fair-housing-act http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/st-louis-conference-cele...