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I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict

I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict the exact result of two peoples genes mixing. If you could determine with 99% accuracy the exact genome of a child by their parents genomes alone, would you be able to optimize humans across given a relatively small set?

philipov 8y ago
Except that gene mixing is a highly quantum mechanical process, and so we are precluded from predicting the result of a single event. We can only predict the probability of a particular mix of genes. They could direct averages, but not individual events.
- dbasedweeb 8y ago
  Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.
  - philipov 8y ago
    Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"
    - dbasedweeb 8y ago
      I enjoy Dune a lot, but what you describe is absolutely the basis for any science in the story. It’s less science fiction and more high fantasy.
    - krapp 8y ago
      There is "hard" and "soft" magic in fantasy, just as there's "hard" and "soft" science in SF. A story with magic in the premise still needs that magic to have rules and limitations, even if they're not communicated to the reader - even the soft magic of myth and fairy tales needs to have some sense of internal logic.
    - simonh 8y ago
      The best science fiction and fantasy begins by taking a few specific assumptions, which may be fantastical, but then exploring the consequences of those assumptions in a disciplined way. For example having one form of FTL travel with known limitations in an SF setting and exploring the possibilities within those rules. Writers that take your approach - it’s all made up so I’ll just make up new rules whenever so feel like it - are rarely satisfying because the reader can’t trust anything or reason about the setting or the characters choices. This is the problem with J.J. Abrams approach Star Trek and Star Wars. He seemed to take a special glee in arbitrarily violating established conventions in the settings with respect to things like how Warp Drive and Transporter technology work in Star Trek.
- madhadron 8y ago
  Not quantum mechanical, just random, and the available material is restricted in each cross.
brandonmenc 8y ago
But in Dune there are mechanisms beyond genetics at work - that's why artificial insemination is prohibited - the BG believe the emotional act of copulation influences traits in the offspring. Also "wild genes" - particularly those of the Fremen - producing unexpected results (ex: Leto II). The Bene Tleilax though, they're probably making solid genetic projections.
otakucode 8y ago
No. Not even with that degree of knowledge could one effectively engineer towards a goal. Or, rather, one could engineer towards a goal but only by either accepting or ignoring profound weaknesses and drawbacks. Look at something like Golden Retrievers, for example. They were effectively developed into a distinct breed... and suffer tremendous health complications from it. It's not a matter of the breeders slipping up. It's a matter of genes and genetic activity being complex enough that all 'pure' traits are paired with 'pure' flaws. You cannot acquire one without the other. This leaves aside the more important question raised by the scope of the Dune universe, which is defining what 'optimal' would even mean in such a world. Traits are only optimal or sub-optimal relative to an environment. Being smart and not able to move heavy objects would doom a medieval man, but being stupid but strong would hamper a modern man. That's a facile example and you'd be more likely talking about weakness to certain pathogens, dependence upon particular physical environmental needs (oxygen level, caloric availability, body temperature control efficiency, etc) though, really. If you're going to be planet-hopping and galavanting across the universe, what is optimal in one place can kill you in another and vice versa. The myth that there is a 'strongest' state is just that, a myth. In genetics, diversity always wins. Flexibility and complexity always wins. Being mediocre at everything is a far greater survival trait than being a master at one is if it means you are a total failure on another count. Living things can only fail once.
- pmwhite 8y ago
  It is a little handwavy, but perhaps the BG worked for generations to achieve key areas of hybrid superiority by honing pure breeding lines in these two families? Does not seem to be what the BG are doing, though. Furthermore, one can now ask if the more perfect specimen for a given environment might be a chimera: this genome for nervous system, that genome for leg muscles, this other genome for internal organs, etc. But your main point stands. The Dune series presumes that such a thing as breeding a superior human is not very difficult to manage on the scale of mere centuries. I am not sure how even define such a thing. And I rather doubt such a specimen would breed true with a similarly superior specimen.

philipov 8y ago

Except that gene mixing is a highly quantum mechanical process, and so we are precluded from predicting the result of a single event. We can only predict the probability of a particular mix of genes. They could direct averages, but not individual events.

dbasedweeb 8y ago
Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.
- philipov 8y ago
  Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"
  - dbasedweeb 8y ago
    I enjoy Dune a lot, but what you describe is absolutely the basis for any science in the story. It’s less science fiction and more high fantasy.
  - krapp 8y ago
    There is "hard" and "soft" magic in fantasy, just as there's "hard" and "soft" science in SF. A story with magic in the premise still needs that magic to have rules and limitations, even if they're not communicated to the reader - even the soft magic of myth and fairy tales needs to have some sense of internal logic.
  - simonh 8y ago
    The best science fiction and fantasy begins by taking a few specific assumptions, which may be fantastical, but then exploring the consequences of those assumptions in a disciplined way. For example having one form of FTL travel with known limitations in an SF setting and exploring the possibilities within those rules. Writers that take your approach - it’s all made up so I’ll just make up new rules whenever so feel like it - are rarely satisfying because the reader can’t trust anything or reason about the setting or the characters choices. This is the problem with J.J. Abrams approach Star Trek and Star Wars. He seemed to take a special glee in arbitrarily violating established conventions in the settings with respect to things like how Warp Drive and Transporter technology work in Star Trek.
madhadron 8y ago
Not quantum mechanical, just random, and the available material is restricted in each cross.

brandonmenc 8y ago

But in Dune there are mechanisms beyond genetics at work - that's why artificial insemination is prohibited - the BG believe the emotional act of copulation influences traits in the offspring. Also "wild genes" - particularly those of the Fremen - producing unexpected results (ex: Leto II). The Bene Tleilax though, they're probably making solid genetic projections.

otakucode 8y ago

No. Not even with that degree of knowledge could one effectively engineer towards a goal. Or, rather, one could engineer towards a goal but only by either accepting or ignoring profound weaknesses and drawbacks. Look at something like Golden Retrievers, for example. They were effectively developed into a distinct breed... and suffer tremendous health complications from it. It's not a matter of the breeders slipping up. It's a matter of genes and genetic activity being complex enough that all 'pure' traits are paired with 'pure' flaws. You cannot acquire one without the other. This leaves aside the more important question raised by the scope of the Dune universe, which is defining what 'optimal' would even mean in such a world. Traits are only optimal or sub-optimal relative to an environment. Being smart and not able to move heavy objects would doom a medieval man, but being stupid but strong would hamper a modern man. That's a facile example and you'd be more likely talking about weakness to certain pathogens, dependence upon particular physical environmental needs (oxygen level, caloric availability, body temperature control efficiency, etc) though, really. If you're going to be planet-hopping and galavanting across the universe, what is optimal in one place can kill you in another and vice versa. The myth that there is a 'strongest' state is just that, a myth. In genetics, diversity always wins. Flexibility and complexity always wins. Being mediocre at everything is a far greater survival trait than being a master at one is if it means you are a total failure on another count. Living things can only fail once.

pmwhite 8y ago
It is a little handwavy, but perhaps the BG worked for generations to achieve key areas of hybrid superiority by honing pure breeding lines in these two families? Does not seem to be what the BG are doing, though. Furthermore, one can now ask if the more perfect specimen for a given environment might be a chimera: this genome for nervous system, that genome for leg muscles, this other genome for internal organs, etc. But your main point stands. The Dune series presumes that such a thing as breeding a superior human is not very difficult to manage on the scale of mere centuries. I am not sure how even define such a thing. And I rather doubt such a specimen would breed true with a similarly superior specimen.