6 ms·

The Sound of Madness

106 points by fmihaila 8y ago

forkLding 8y ago
Remember reading about avatar therapy, interesting to see it only be a recent thing. The article was on how software through constructing 3D faces (using a game engine I believe) was helping schizophrenics and that they were branching into VR research as well.
- bitwize 8y ago
  Yeah, they would build an avatar to represent the persona of a schizophrenic's head-voice and give it a synthesized voice that sounded like what the schizophrenic heard. Then they would puppet the avatar, engaging the patient in dialogue, slowly making it say less and less harmful things, and eventually ceding control to the patient. The patient would come away feeling more in control, and less threatened or coerced by the voices. Fascinating stuff.
mirimir 8y ago
Good article. But it doesn't mention the self-talk aka "stream of consciousness" that virtually everyone hears. And a key insight is that it's not our consciousness. It's basically just recordings that get played back on queue. A central aspect of meditation is becoming aware of that voice as something distinct from self. So anyway, it's best to think "Thanks for sharing :)" and then to do something intentional.
- danieltillett 8y ago
  As someone who normally doesn't have the self-talk module running, I was amazed to learn that most people have it running all the time. I only use the module when writing, otherwise my consciousness is normally non-verbal. I suspect it is related, but when I read I don't hear the words unless I deliberately choose to read the text in my head, otherwise my process is written word -> concept.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    Interesting. I hear words when reading but not when thinking -- unless specifically walking myself through an impending dialog or how to compose a written communication.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Cool. I've learned to minimize self-talk. And yes, it helps for writing. But during crises, it's there loud and clear. I used to think that it was what I wanted. And that sometimes didn't turn out so well :( For reading, it depends on the genre, how well I know the topics, and complexity. I don't hear words in reading fiction. I just experience thoughts, feelings and action. If I'm confused, I need to reread and parse. And English isn't my mother tongue, so sometimes I need to diagram stuff. But if it's familiar stuff, it's words -> concepts.
  - Lambdanaut 8y ago
    Even further-leaning on that spectrum, I have an acquaintance with complete Aphantasia. He lives life with a complete inability to experience anything that is not happening at that moment. He cannot picture his mother's face. He can't recall his life. He can't get a song stuck in his head. He can't hear any words in his head at all. And yet he's an incredibly talented musician, writer, and teacher. When he sits at his piano, the music just happens. He can only compose while working at the instrument.
    - kszxgz 8y ago
      "He cannot picture his mother's face." How common is the ability to picture people's faces in their heads? Is it more close to 60%, 90% or 99% of the population? I'm asking because I also don't have that ability. I think I lose the ability to picture people's faces a couple of seconds after seeing them, while preserving the ability to recognize them if I have seen them often enough. "He can't recall his life." What type of recall are you referring to? May I assume that factual recall is still present while visual, auditory and emotional recall is inactive?
      - slx26 8y ago
- WalterSear 8y ago
  Fwiw: subvocalization isn't inherent. You can practice yourself out of it. In many ways, it's a crutch: it slows down your train of thought and corals those thoughts to those you can verbalize.
no_identd 8y ago
Heh. I had hoped this would turn into a sequel to this article: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2016/03/schizophrenia_and_subvocal_speech_why_schizophrenics_hear_the_voices_of.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa... Unfortunately, it didn't. Still a good read, tho.
- mirimir 8y ago
  That's what I was thinking. But damn, I've never seen entities talking to me. Except on acid, and sometimes when very stoned. But only with my eyes closed.
  - girvo 8y ago
    LSD (a huge dose of liquid, straight up ego death for 6 hours) and DMT have both allowed me to experience entities and “converse” with them in a manner of speaking. An enjoyable couple of experiences, but I can understand why it’d be scary to experience outside of a psychedelic trip.
    - bigbugbag 8y ago
      Please do not talk of huge dose of liquid when talking of very potent substances such as LSD. A very heavy dose of LSD is about 350µg or 350/1 000 000g. which is such a small quantity that you cannot see it. One can put 50µg in 1 liter of water and drink a lot of liquid but ingest a light dose while a single drop can contain enough to heavy trip several people.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Due to a dilution error, I did 3000µg once. The point of mentioning "liquid LSD" (typically in 80% ethanol) is that it was usually the purest available. And easiest to verify purity. It should be colorless. And a sample containing 500µg should leave no visible residue when dried on glass. Common adulterants would be present at much higher concentrations. Unless some jerk added fentanyl or Botulinum toxin :(
jtolds 8y ago
I kept waiting for this article to mention Julian Jaynes' hypothesis on the origin of consciousness but it never did. It's super fascinating though! Essentially, ancient history all the way up to Greece had this feature that people heard voices all the time and it never seemed unusual to anyone. His hypothesis is that maybe written history started before the evolution of what we now call consciousness and we witnessed it in written history. http://www.julianjaynes.org/julian-jaynes-theory-overview.php http://www.julianjaynes.org/julian-jaynes-theory-overview.ph... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#The_Origin_of_Consciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#The_...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mirimir 8y ago
  Right. Stephenson's Snow Crash riffs on that.
  - jpttsn 8y ago
    As does Westworld.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  > His hypothesis is that maybe written history started before the evolution of what we now call consciousness and we witnessed it in written history. That seems to fit with The Pharmacratic Inquisition from 2007: "The Pharmacratic Inquisition is a provocative film from Gnostic Media that makes the argument that virtually all of the mythology, symbolism, and story of Jesus and related Christian traditions relate to two basic subjects: astrology and shamanism. For those unfamiliar with the evidence in support of this claim, this film can be truly eye opening and revolutionary." [1] As well as The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in Judeo-Christianity from 2008: "A critical re-evaluation of the schism between John M. Allegro and R. Gordon Wasson over the theory on the entheogenic origins of Christianity presented in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" [2] [1] https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-pharmacratic-inquisition/ https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-pharmacratic-inquisition/ [2] https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-holy-mushroom-evidence-of-mushrooms-in-judeo-christianity/ https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-holy-mushroom-evidence-of-m...
SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
This was a great article that I’m glad I’m not reading in my early twenties. (For mild hypochondriac fears!)
zeta0134 8y ago
I spent two years living with a man, then my lover, who refused to seek medical help but almost certainly had something like disassociative identity. He had learned to cope with it by giving his voices distinct names, and adopting their personas over times, often in response to external stimuli. As an outside observer with no such symptoms of my own, I found this completely fascinating. He's very spiritual, one of his inner voices would often come out and sage the house, offer prayers, and perform personal rituals which he kept secret. Otherwise though, I found that his personas largely reflected his current emotional state. One persona would almost always be "out" when he was upset with a friend, or struggling with some stress. Another was more childlike and playful. He described them as always there, and even though he appeared to allow one of them to be "in charge" as he put it, he said the voices were always in the back of his mind, directing his thoughts. The experience has opened my eyes, and allowed me to see these disorders in a more positive light. I never told him what I thought of his diagnosis and never felt the need; while his condition lent itself to occasional mood swings, he made a point of _respecting_ his voices, allowed them to become a part of him, and I feel had largely learned to cope. He could even switch his behaviors off for a while when needed, usually for work or when he felt the need to be professional. I don't think medication would have helped, not that he would have taken it. He had figured himself out for better or worse, and I just learned to accept him as he was.
- montyf 8y ago
  > Otherwise though, I found that his personas largely reflected his current emotional state. One persona would almost always be "out" when he was upset with a friend, or struggling with some stress. Another was more childlike and playful. He described them as always there, and even though he appeared to allow one of them to be "in charge" as he put it, he said the voices were always in the back of his mind, directing his thoughts. That doesn't sound like a disorder. The abnormal thing about your friend is that he is more aware than the average person. The illusion of a single, unified self is just that. When you talk to people in your dreams, who are you talking to? Their responses are quite intelligent, if you listen. When you say embarrassing things under anesthesia with no memory of it, who said those things? When you get irrationally angry, who the hell is it that comes out? Same with the alcoholic who swears one day he'll quit and forgets about it the next day -- different people. Moreover, there are huge areas of your brain that work quietly and subconsciously (from your perspective). Not only are they conscious, they're smarter than you. They prove it through intuition and gut feeling, if you listen. > while his condition lent itself to occasional mood swings, he made a point of _respecting_ his voices, allowed them to become a part of him, and I feel had largely learned to cope. I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I found your tone somewhat condescending. It's not his alternate selves that he needs to "cope" with, but society's notion that something is wrong with him. This might sound too new-age for people, but the more aware you are, the more you realize just how sick everyone else is. We literally have conscious beings imprisoned within us. > He had figured himself out for better or worse Probably figured himself out better than the rest of us ever will.
bigbugbag 8y ago
The article repeat a few times that people hearing voices often hate them, that voices are harsh and say terrible things but it overlooked that this is only the case in the US and occident meanwhile in Africa the voices are kind and say nice things. https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/ https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann...
rubzah 8y ago
Surprised no one had mentioned John Nash and A Beautiful Mind. I won't spoil it for anyone that doesn't know the story but it is very reminiscent of the woman in the article.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

106 points by fmihaila 8y ago

Remember reading about avatar therapy, interesting to see it only be a recent thing. The article was on how software through constructing 3D faces (using a game engine I believe) was helping schizophrenics and that they were branching into VR research as well.

bitwize 8y ago
Yeah, they would build an avatar to represent the persona of a schizophrenic's head-voice and give it a synthesized voice that sounded like what the schizophrenic heard. Then they would puppet the avatar, engaging the patient in dialogue, slowly making it say less and less harmful things, and eventually ceding control to the patient. The patient would come away feeling more in control, and less threatened or coerced by the voices. Fascinating stuff.

mirimir 8y ago

Good article. But it doesn't mention the self-talk aka "stream of consciousness" that virtually everyone hears. And a key insight is that it's not our consciousness. It's basically just recordings that get played back on queue. A central aspect of meditation is becoming aware of that voice as something distinct from self. So anyway, it's best to think "Thanks for sharing :)" and then to do something intentional.

danieltillett 8y ago
As someone who normally doesn't have the self-talk module running, I was amazed to learn that most people have it running all the time. I only use the module when writing, otherwise my consciousness is normally non-verbal. I suspect it is related, but when I read I don't hear the words unless I deliberately choose to read the text in my head, otherwise my process is written word -> concept.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Interesting. I hear words when reading but not when thinking -- unless specifically walking myself through an impending dialog or how to compose a written communication.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Cool. I've learned to minimize self-talk. And yes, it helps for writing. But during crises, it's there loud and clear. I used to think that it was what I wanted. And that sometimes didn't turn out so well :( For reading, it depends on the genre, how well I know the topics, and complexity. I don't hear words in reading fiction. I just experience thoughts, feelings and action. If I'm confused, I need to reread and parse. And English isn't my mother tongue, so sometimes I need to diagram stuff. But if it's familiar stuff, it's words -> concepts.
- Lambdanaut 8y ago
  Even further-leaning on that spectrum, I have an acquaintance with complete Aphantasia. He lives life with a complete inability to experience anything that is not happening at that moment. He cannot picture his mother's face. He can't recall his life. He can't get a song stuck in his head. He can't hear any words in his head at all. And yet he's an incredibly talented musician, writer, and teacher. When he sits at his piano, the music just happens. He can only compose while working at the instrument.
  - kszxgz 8y ago
    "He cannot picture his mother's face." How common is the ability to picture people's faces in their heads? Is it more close to 60%, 90% or 99% of the population? I'm asking because I also don't have that ability. I think I lose the ability to picture people's faces a couple of seconds after seeing them, while preserving the ability to recognize them if I have seen them often enough. "He can't recall his life." What type of recall are you referring to? May I assume that factual recall is still present while visual, auditory and emotional recall is inactive?
    - slx26 8y ago
WalterSear 8y ago
Fwiw: subvocalization isn't inherent. You can practice yourself out of it. In many ways, it's a crutch: it slows down your train of thought and corals those thoughts to those you can verbalize.

no_identd 8y ago

Heh. I had hoped this would turn into a sequel to this article: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2016/03/schizophrenia_and_subvocal_speech_why_schizophrenics_hear_the_voices_of.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa... Unfortunately, it didn't. Still a good read, tho.

mirimir 8y ago
That's what I was thinking. But damn, I've never seen entities talking to me. Except on acid, and sometimes when very stoned. But only with my eyes closed.
- girvo 8y ago
  LSD (a huge dose of liquid, straight up ego death for 6 hours) and DMT have both allowed me to experience entities and “converse” with them in a manner of speaking. An enjoyable couple of experiences, but I can understand why it’d be scary to experience outside of a psychedelic trip.
  - bigbugbag 8y ago
    Please do not talk of huge dose of liquid when talking of very potent substances such as LSD. A very heavy dose of LSD is about 350µg or 350/1 000 000g. which is such a small quantity that you cannot see it. One can put 50µg in 1 liter of water and drink a lot of liquid but ingest a light dose while a single drop can contain enough to heavy trip several people.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Due to a dilution error, I did 3000µg once. The point of mentioning "liquid LSD" (typically in 80% ethanol) is that it was usually the purest available. And easiest to verify purity. It should be colorless. And a sample containing 500µg should leave no visible residue when dried on glass. Common adulterants would be present at much higher concentrations. Unless some jerk added fentanyl or Botulinum toxin :(

jtolds 8y ago

I kept waiting for this article to mention Julian Jaynes' hypothesis on the origin of consciousness but it never did. It's super fascinating though! Essentially, ancient history all the way up to Greece had this feature that people heard voices all the time and it never seemed unusual to anyone. His hypothesis is that maybe written history started before the evolution of what we now call consciousness and we witnessed it in written history. http://www.julianjaynes.org/julian-jaynes-theory-overview.php http://www.julianjaynes.org/julian-jaynes-theory-overview.ph... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#The_Origin_of_Consciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#The_...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mirimir 8y ago
Right. Stephenson's Snow Crash riffs on that.
- jpttsn 8y ago
  As does Westworld.
Fnoord 8y ago
> His hypothesis is that maybe written history started before the evolution of what we now call consciousness and we witnessed it in written history. That seems to fit with The Pharmacratic Inquisition from 2007: "The Pharmacratic Inquisition is a provocative film from Gnostic Media that makes the argument that virtually all of the mythology, symbolism, and story of Jesus and related Christian traditions relate to two basic subjects: astrology and shamanism. For those unfamiliar with the evidence in support of this claim, this film can be truly eye opening and revolutionary." [1] As well as The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in Judeo-Christianity from 2008: "A critical re-evaluation of the schism between John M. Allegro and R. Gordon Wasson over the theory on the entheogenic origins of Christianity presented in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" [2] [1] https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-pharmacratic-inquisition/ https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-pharmacratic-inquisition/ [2] https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-holy-mushroom-evidence-of-mushrooms-in-judeo-christianity/ https://www.gnosticmedia.com/the-holy-mushroom-evidence-of-m...

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago

This was a great article that I’m glad I’m not reading in my early twenties. (For mild hypochondriac fears!)

zeta0134 8y ago

I spent two years living with a man, then my lover, who refused to seek medical help but almost certainly had something like disassociative identity. He had learned to cope with it by giving his voices distinct names, and adopting their personas over times, often in response to external stimuli. As an outside observer with no such symptoms of my own, I found this completely fascinating. He's very spiritual, one of his inner voices would often come out and sage the house, offer prayers, and perform personal rituals which he kept secret. Otherwise though, I found that his personas largely reflected his current emotional state. One persona would almost always be "out" when he was upset with a friend, or struggling with some stress. Another was more childlike and playful. He described them as always there, and even though he appeared to allow one of them to be "in charge" as he put it, he said the voices were always in the back of his mind, directing his thoughts. The experience has opened my eyes, and allowed me to see these disorders in a more positive light. I never told him what I thought of his diagnosis and never felt the need; while his condition lent itself to occasional mood swings, he made a point of _respecting_ his voices, allowed them to become a part of him, and I feel had largely learned to cope. He could even switch his behaviors off for a while when needed, usually for work or when he felt the need to be professional. I don't think medication would have helped, not that he would have taken it. He had figured himself out for better or worse, and I just learned to accept him as he was.

montyf 8y ago
> Otherwise though, I found that his personas largely reflected his current emotional state. One persona would almost always be "out" when he was upset with a friend, or struggling with some stress. Another was more childlike and playful. He described them as always there, and even though he appeared to allow one of them to be "in charge" as he put it, he said the voices were always in the back of his mind, directing his thoughts. That doesn't sound like a disorder. The abnormal thing about your friend is that he is more aware than the average person. The illusion of a single, unified self is just that. When you talk to people in your dreams, who are you talking to? Their responses are quite intelligent, if you listen. When you say embarrassing things under anesthesia with no memory of it, who said those things? When you get irrationally angry, who the hell is it that comes out? Same with the alcoholic who swears one day he'll quit and forgets about it the next day -- different people. Moreover, there are huge areas of your brain that work quietly and subconsciously (from your perspective). Not only are they conscious, they're smarter than you. They prove it through intuition and gut feeling, if you listen. > while his condition lent itself to occasional mood swings, he made a point of _respecting_ his voices, allowed them to become a part of him, and I feel had largely learned to cope. I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I found your tone somewhat condescending. It's not his alternate selves that he needs to "cope" with, but society's notion that something is wrong with him. This might sound too new-age for people, but the more aware you are, the more you realize just how sick everyone else is. We literally have conscious beings imprisoned within us. > He had figured himself out for better or worse Probably figured himself out better than the rest of us ever will.

bigbugbag 8y ago

The article repeat a few times that people hearing voices often hate them, that voices are harsh and say terrible things but it overlooked that this is only the case in the US and occident meanwhile in Africa the voices are kind and say nice things. https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/ https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann...

rubzah 8y ago

Surprised no one had mentioned John Nash and A Beautiful Mind. I won't spoil it for anyone that doesn't know the story but it is very reminiscent of the woman in the article.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]