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As a counter point: most young men I knew growing up (in a upper middle class, left leaning neighborhood) really could have used some time in the military. I kn

As a counter point: most young men I knew growing up (in a upper middle class, left leaning neighborhood) really could have used some time in the military. I know I could have. I ended up getting a similar-ish experience working construction. And that's just at the personal development level. As a society, I think some kind of compulsory service (not necessarily military, but military as an option) for young men and women would go a long way toward healing the political, class, and racial divisions in the US. It's hard to other a group of people when you've worked alongside and bonded with individuals of that group.

ItsMe000001 9y ago
As a counter point, since throughout history we have had plenty of states with a big role for the military, I don't think your theory that it helps "heal" the nation passes the test. I'm not sure, I'm far from being a historian, maybe somebody could offer an educated opinion on the subject... but my point is we don't need to wait, there should be plenty of data to look at.
- watwut 9y ago
  One data point would be Germany prior WWII the other soviet russia. In Germany, the lower levels of government being composed of ex-soldiers was factor that made Nazi takeover easier (based on Evans books for example). As for eastern block, I knew personally people of older generation that have been through draft and their memories were not rosy. A lot of bullying, a lot of having to submit yourself to bullying or various abuse of higher ups or just stupidity. (Turned out smartest profesional soldiers were not the ones dealing with draftees). One was forced to steal, many learned to smoke and generally it was exercise on avoiding duty+doing minimum once you are after basic training. Army quality went up after all those people who really did not wanted to be there were not there. Israel has draft too, but it is real war going on there so it might be different. Switzerland has military duty, but they do shorter stints at time. I really don't think you can solve racial divisions by that. Racial divisons are a lot about ideologies and believes and legacy of history and so on.
  - manfredo 9y ago
    Interesting, I've actually heard the opposite point made about Germany. My understanding is that the Allies considered Junkers, a Prussian and later German hereditary military class, to be one of the key factors that led a Germany to instigate WWII in Europe. This is why the Allies wanted Germany to institute a draft, to prevent one segment of the population from exerting near total control of the military. At least that's my understanding of the establishment of the West German military.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Both can be true, but i dont know much about after ear. Prior WWII ex-soldiers had guaranteed employment in goverment. By law. So, trains, post, police, social help etc were all ex-soldiers. Meaning socialized in military, military values of obeisense, duty to do what is told, etc determining how all those institutions worked. They adjusted to Nazi rule remarkably well and without any fuss, including in beginning. Also, Germany had conscription since 1935 including labor for those not trusted to be in military. Hitler wanted war two no matter who ruled army, germany foreign policts wanted imperium, so I think it would happen even if hereditary officers were someone else. One more thing here. Nazi army and conscription and also school system were preparation for brutal war where Germans were meant to be the most brutal. Which essentially happened. One issue with military as mandatory training to teach you values and discipline and what not is that they might teach you wrong values including to be remarkably brutal.
Fripplebubby 9y ago
I think William James had some interesting thoughts about this a century ago: https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/states-war/proposing-moral-equivalent-war https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/states-war/proposing-moral-...
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  That was great, thanks. > They would have paid their blood tax, done their own part in the immemorial human warfare against nature; they would tread the earth more proudly, the women would value them more highly, they would be better fathers and teachers of the following generation. Yup. A couple of further thoughts: 1. To me, one of the more important aspects of my time in construction is that it showed me my physical and mental limits. And I think it is only by locating the extremes that we are able to accurately place the locations between the extremes. 2. I think most men need something that marks the passage from childhood to adulthood. Something which they can point to which was hard, which required toughness to overcome, and which was witnessed by others. IMO a right of passage like this is sorely lacking now that most people grow up without having done hard work on a farm.
s2g 8y ago
> really could have used some time in the military So long as the US continues to engage int he current state of endless war, hell no. Then again, a system that actually results in the 20 year old children of the old men in power dying, would certainly help.

ItsMe000001 9y ago

As a counter point, since throughout history we have had plenty of states with a big role for the military, I don't think your theory that it helps "heal" the nation passes the test. I'm not sure, I'm far from being a historian, maybe somebody could offer an educated opinion on the subject... but my point is we don't need to wait, there should be plenty of data to look at.

watwut 9y ago
One data point would be Germany prior WWII the other soviet russia. In Germany, the lower levels of government being composed of ex-soldiers was factor that made Nazi takeover easier (based on Evans books for example). As for eastern block, I knew personally people of older generation that have been through draft and their memories were not rosy. A lot of bullying, a lot of having to submit yourself to bullying or various abuse of higher ups or just stupidity. (Turned out smartest profesional soldiers were not the ones dealing with draftees). One was forced to steal, many learned to smoke and generally it was exercise on avoiding duty+doing minimum once you are after basic training. Army quality went up after all those people who really did not wanted to be there were not there. Israel has draft too, but it is real war going on there so it might be different. Switzerland has military duty, but they do shorter stints at time. I really don't think you can solve racial divisions by that. Racial divisons are a lot about ideologies and believes and legacy of history and so on.
- manfredo 9y ago
  Interesting, I've actually heard the opposite point made about Germany. My understanding is that the Allies considered Junkers, a Prussian and later German hereditary military class, to be one of the key factors that led a Germany to instigate WWII in Europe. This is why the Allies wanted Germany to institute a draft, to prevent one segment of the population from exerting near total control of the military. At least that's my understanding of the establishment of the West German military.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Both can be true, but i dont know much about after ear. Prior WWII ex-soldiers had guaranteed employment in goverment. By law. So, trains, post, police, social help etc were all ex-soldiers. Meaning socialized in military, military values of obeisense, duty to do what is told, etc determining how all those institutions worked. They adjusted to Nazi rule remarkably well and without any fuss, including in beginning. Also, Germany had conscription since 1935 including labor for those not trusted to be in military. Hitler wanted war two no matter who ruled army, germany foreign policts wanted imperium, so I think it would happen even if hereditary officers were someone else. One more thing here. Nazi army and conscription and also school system were preparation for brutal war where Germans were meant to be the most brutal. Which essentially happened. One issue with military as mandatory training to teach you values and discipline and what not is that they might teach you wrong values including to be remarkably brutal.

Fripplebubby 9y ago

I think William James had some interesting thoughts about this a century ago: https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/states-war/proposing-moral-equivalent-war https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/states-war/proposing-moral-...

toasterlovin 8y ago
That was great, thanks. > They would have paid their blood tax, done their own part in the immemorial human warfare against nature; they would tread the earth more proudly, the women would value them more highly, they would be better fathers and teachers of the following generation. Yup. A couple of further thoughts: 1. To me, one of the more important aspects of my time in construction is that it showed me my physical and mental limits. And I think it is only by locating the extremes that we are able to accurately place the locations between the extremes. 2. I think most men need something that marks the passage from childhood to adulthood. Something which they can point to which was hard, which required toughness to overcome, and which was witnessed by others. IMO a right of passage like this is sorely lacking now that most people grow up without having done hard work on a farm.

s2g 8y ago

> really could have used some time in the military So long as the US continues to engage int he current state of endless war, hell no. Then again, a system that actually results in the 20 year old children of the old men in power dying, would certainly help.