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> I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar

> I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar to actors and musicians than it is to doctors or lawyers. You also have to factor in practicality and gatekeeping (for lack of a better word) - it's not very practical for a doctor to perform mock surgery for an interview, whereas it's very feasible asking someone to write some code on a whiteboard; and if you're a surgeon you have things that indicate you know how to perform surgery at a much higher level of confidence than knowing someone can problem solve (well) just because they list "developer" on their resume, surgeons have to go to many years or medical school, they have to spend time in residency, they have to pass their boards, if software development had the equivalent of all this (and I'm not necessarily saying it should) then yes there'd be much less need for "auditions" in our field.

learc83 8y ago
>Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists. Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee. In general they aren't expected to perform on the spot in front of an audience because that's not part of their job.
- frostmatthew 8y ago
  > Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equivalent). But more importantly I think you missed my point, in that the audition for these professions are under very different conditions than what you'll actually be doing "on the job" (one of the bigger complaints with whiteboarding seems to be that it doesn't closely mirror the actual work). > Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee That'd be fine if the point of the technical interview was to determine they know how to write code, but it's not IMO. As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do (you should also obviously make sure a candidate knows how to code before you hire them, but that's the point of the phone screen).
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions This is only true for an extremely limited definition of audience. Movie actors most certainly perform in front of an audience. There are hundreds of people on the set. Even a small indie film has a few dozen people on set. It's the same for TV actors. Studio musicians also have plenty of people watching over their shoulders while they perform, and they're expected to be able to do so on the spot without preparation. >As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. There's nothing special about programming in this regard. We've just convinced ourselves that our industry is so special that of course we need weird hazing rituals. Everyone else seems to get along fine without treating people from new college grads to programmers with 20 years of experience like this is their first job. Can you solve this artificial problem that I already know the answer to right now in this time boxed, needlessly adversarial situation situation while I watch over your shoulder and critique you?
    - frostmatthew 8y ago
      It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) > That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. Communication, like problem solving, is likewise an important part of nearly everyone's job, but the importance of good communication skills (as valuable as they are) are much less important to being a good software engineer or good plumber than they are to being a good reporter or trial lawyer or public relations professional. I'm guessing, like most developers, this is your first/only profession - but it's not mine (I switched careers in my early 30s), and I can assure you not every job requires the level of problem solving we deal with on a regular basis (and no, that doesn't make us "so special", not all jobs are identical, some have more or less value in different areas, but one is not more special than another because of the importance of problem solving or communication or empathy or creativity or anything else).

learc83 8y ago

>Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists. Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee. In general they aren't expected to perform on the spot in front of an audience because that's not part of their job.

frostmatthew 8y ago
> Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equivalent). But more importantly I think you missed my point, in that the audition for these professions are under very different conditions than what you'll actually be doing "on the job" (one of the bigger complaints with whiteboarding seems to be that it doesn't closely mirror the actual work). > Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee That'd be fine if the point of the technical interview was to determine they know how to write code, but it's not IMO. As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do (you should also obviously make sure a candidate knows how to code before you hire them, but that's the point of the phone screen).
- learc83 8y ago
  >Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions This is only true for an extremely limited definition of audience. Movie actors most certainly perform in front of an audience. There are hundreds of people on the set. Even a small indie film has a few dozen people on set. It's the same for TV actors. Studio musicians also have plenty of people watching over their shoulders while they perform, and they're expected to be able to do so on the spot without preparation. >As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. There's nothing special about programming in this regard. We've just convinced ourselves that our industry is so special that of course we need weird hazing rituals. Everyone else seems to get along fine without treating people from new college grads to programmers with 20 years of experience like this is their first job. Can you solve this artificial problem that I already know the answer to right now in this time boxed, needlessly adversarial situation situation while I watch over your shoulder and critique you?
  - frostmatthew 8y ago
    It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) > That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. Communication, like problem solving, is likewise an important part of nearly everyone's job, but the importance of good communication skills (as valuable as they are) are much less important to being a good software engineer or good plumber than they are to being a good reporter or trial lawyer or public relations professional. I'm guessing, like most developers, this is your first/only profession - but it's not mine (I switched careers in my early 30s), and I can assure you not every job requires the level of problem solving we deal with on a regular basis (and no, that doesn't make us "so special", not all jobs are identical, some have more or less value in different areas, but one is not more special than another because of the importance of problem solving or communication or empathy or creativity or anything else).