4 ms·

Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone?

by fouc 9y ago

_pmf_ 9y ago
> Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone? If companies would frame it as such, I could choose to avoid these companies. So for the candidate, it would have a tangible benefit.
paulie_a 9y ago
Yes I would absolutely avoid a company that called it an audition. I am not an actor and should not have to perform for a company... It's basically saying "we want you to jump through even more hoops than you already did" You need to also sell me on why I would want to work at your company. "Audition" is just insanely redicolous
frostmatthew 9y ago
That's the analogy I use when people complain that whiteboarding doesn't mimic/approximate they day-to-day job. If you're the casting director for a play you're going to have auditions, you're not going to cast people based (solely) on their resume and having a conversation about their acting background. But auditions are very different than an actual performance: there's no audience or costumes or props, the lighting is completely different than what it will be, you're reading from a script, you may be the only person on stage while the other roles are read offstage, you're being accompanied by a piano instead of a full pit orchestra, you're mostly standing in one place instead of moving to established blocking, and so forth. The point of an audition isn't to mirror performance night, it's to get an idea if you're capable of acting/singing/dancing/whatever. Likewise the purpose of whiteboarding isn't to mirror the day-to-day work, it's to get an idea of your problem solving capabilities (some might argue it's also to see if you actually know how to code, but personally I feel that's what the technical phonescreen is for).
- nunya213 9y ago
  I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this. Could you imagine a Surgeon being forced to "Audition" for his job? "Here perform heart surgery on this guy for us, if he lives you get the job."
  - frostmatthew 9y ago
    > I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar to actors and musicians than it is to doctors or lawyers. You also have to factor in practicality and gatekeeping (for lack of a better word) - it's not very practical for a doctor to perform mock surgery for an interview, whereas it's very feasible asking someone to write some code on a whiteboard; and if you're a surgeon you have things that indicate you know how to perform surgery at a much higher level of confidence than knowing someone can problem solve (well) just because they list "developer" on their resume, surgeons have to go to many years or medical school, they have to spend time in residency, they have to pass their boards, if software development had the equivalent of all this (and I'm not necessarily saying it should) then yes there'd be much less need for "auditions" in our field.
    - learc83 9y ago
      >Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists. Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee. In general they aren't expected to perform on the spot in front of an audience because that's not part of their job.
      - frostmatthew 9y ago
        > Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equivalent). But more importantly I think you missed my point, in that the audition for these professions are under very different conditions than what you'll actually be doing "on the job" (one of the bigger complaints with whiteboarding seems to be that it doesn't closely mirror the actual work). > Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee That'd be fine if the point of the technical interview was to determine they know how to write code, but it's not IMO. As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do (you should also obviously make sure a candidate knows how to code before you hire them, but that's the point of the phone screen).
mafro 9y ago
An interesting idea! As shown by the sibling comments, there might be some trouble communicating what this means to candidates..
waisbrot 9y ago
I've done interviews where I was asked to come prepared to present some code I'd written (either a homework problem or some open-source work). I found it a nice approach: they got to see how I'd explain code to a colleague and what aspects I focused on. I could take time to tailor my presentation to the company if there were things I thought they'd find more important. The downsides are that it's harder on people who don't like to put on a performance and it's harder to come up with objective-seeming measures between candidates.

Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone?

by fouc 9y ago

Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone?

> Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone? If companies would frame it as such, I could choose to avoid these companies. So for the candidate, it would have a tangible benefit.

paulie_a 9y ago

Yes I would absolutely avoid a company that called it an audition. I am not an actor and should not have to perform for a company... It's basically saying "we want you to jump through even more hoops than you already did" You need to also sell me on why I would want to work at your company. "Audition" is just insanely redicolous

frostmatthew 9y ago

That's the analogy I use when people complain that whiteboarding doesn't mimic/approximate they day-to-day job. If you're the casting director for a play you're going to have auditions, you're not going to cast people based (solely) on their resume and having a conversation about their acting background. But auditions are very different than an actual performance: there's no audience or costumes or props, the lighting is completely different than what it will be, you're reading from a script, you may be the only person on stage while the other roles are read offstage, you're being accompanied by a piano instead of a full pit orchestra, you're mostly standing in one place instead of moving to established blocking, and so forth. The point of an audition isn't to mirror performance night, it's to get an idea if you're capable of acting/singing/dancing/whatever. Likewise the purpose of whiteboarding isn't to mirror the day-to-day work, it's to get an idea of your problem solving capabilities (some might argue it's also to see if you actually know how to code, but personally I feel that's what the technical phonescreen is for).

nunya213 9y ago
I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this. Could you imagine a Surgeon being forced to "Audition" for his job? "Here perform heart surgery on this guy for us, if he lives you get the job."
- frostmatthew 9y ago
  > I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar to actors and musicians than it is to doctors or lawyers. You also have to factor in practicality and gatekeeping (for lack of a better word) - it's not very practical for a doctor to perform mock surgery for an interview, whereas it's very feasible asking someone to write some code on a whiteboard; and if you're a surgeon you have things that indicate you know how to perform surgery at a much higher level of confidence than knowing someone can problem solve (well) just because they list "developer" on their resume, surgeons have to go to many years or medical school, they have to spend time in residency, they have to pass their boards, if software development had the equivalent of all this (and I'm not necessarily saying it should) then yes there'd be much less need for "auditions" in our field.
  - learc83 9y ago
    >Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists. Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee. In general they aren't expected to perform on the spot in front of an audience because that's not part of their job.
    - frostmatthew 9y ago
      > Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equivalent). But more importantly I think you missed my point, in that the audition for these professions are under very different conditions than what you'll actually be doing "on the job" (one of the bigger complaints with whiteboarding seems to be that it doesn't closely mirror the actual work). > Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee That'd be fine if the point of the technical interview was to determine they know how to write code, but it's not IMO. As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do (you should also obviously make sure a candidate knows how to code before you hire them, but that's the point of the phone screen).

mafro 9y ago

An interesting idea! As shown by the sibling comments, there might be some trouble communicating what this means to candidates..

waisbrot 9y ago

I've done interviews where I was asked to come prepared to present some code I'd written (either a homework problem or some open-source work). I found it a nice approach: they got to see how I'd explain code to a colleague and what aspects I focused on. I could take time to tailor my presentation to the company if there were things I thought they'd find more important. The downsides are that it's harder on people who don't like to put on a performance and it's harder to come up with objective-seeming measures between candidates.