9 ms·

Librem 5 design report

153 points by OberstKrueger 8y ago

gravypod 8y ago
I love the contacts integration. I wish there was also some way to send SMSes directly from your computer to your device without sending to a 3rd party (outside of your service provider and receiver).
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Considering the Librem5 is essentially Just Another Linux System, this would be fairly straight forward to implement... The most basic implementation would be something like a script that you run on your computer, that connects over SSH to the phone, and uses ofono's dbus interface to send a SMS. I haven't been as excited for a device as I am now since the N900.
  - danShumway 8y ago
    > Considering the Librem5 is essentially Just Another Linux System, this would be fairly straight forward to implement This. The moment I started getting really excited for the Librem 5 was when I thought, "half of the problems I'm trying to solve for my phone right now are trivial to solve on this Raspberry Pi sitting next to me. Why isn't my phone running the same OS as the Pi then?"
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      I know, right? Developing anything on Android, for example, requires Java or Kotlin, tens of GB of SDK stuff and emulator images (if you don't have a device with the specific Android API you want to target), and using Android Studio or fighting with gradle manually. Or you could 'root' your device and fight with Android to run your arbitrary scripts in a severely reduced shell. I'm sure some Android dev is going to say "but what about blah blah new API new tools whatever?" in response to this.. but my workflow is autotools or meson (and for the Librem5 a crosscompiler) + vim. Or I could write shell scripts using a plethora of cmdline tools and not install anything extra to develop useful, powerful stuff for this device.
  - mmjaa 8y ago
    I am excited for this phone, for one reason: that I may some day be able to VNC to it from my desktop and use it that way .. or, even better, set it up as a target for Synergy, and simple integrate it into my existing computer fleet as a first class citizen.
    - efigle2501 8y ago
      Question: is the included monitor in some packages advertising the fact that it can be used as a 'desktop' machine as well?
      - chrismorgan 8y ago
        https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ > Enabling the path for a true convergence device, capable to work as a phone, making video and audio calls, encrypted messaging, email, web browser, that can also become a full desktop computer with an option for a compatible keyboard, mouse, and monitor. It can be a desktop computer and phone all-in-one.
- LeoPanthera 8y ago
  In the Days Of Yore, before 3G, every cellular network operated an SMSC into which you could dial, with a standard modem, and send whatever texts you wanted to whoever you wanted. I assume this stopped being open because they figured out that they could charge to send an SMS.
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  In theory it's already there on Linux by using some overlay network (like ZeroNet[1] or ntop's n2n [2]) and KDE Connect (it has "Send SMS from desktop" feature) which works between desktops running K too. [1]https://github.com/zerotier/ZeroTierOne https://github.com/zerotier/ZeroTierOne [2]https://github.com/ntop/n2n https://github.com/ntop/n2n
- konraditurbe 8y ago
  Something like KDE Connect.
mattnewport 8y ago
Happy to hear they're going with a decent size battery over the thinnest possible form factor.
danShumway 8y ago
I'm pretty excited about the Librem 5, if it comes out even halfway decent it'll be my next phone. I'm basically banking on my current phone lasting just up until their release day. When they initially launched their campaign I was a little pessimistic about the whole thing. But since then I've realized a couple of things: - I really dislike the current trend in phone hardware, and Librem will fix most of those problems (kill switches, replaceable battery, etc...) - Most of the focus on the latest and greatest phone hardware is wasted on me, especially if I can control the entire software stack. Using Linux a lot has since taught me that high performance is often only necessary because large tech stacks with mandatory upgrades degrade heavily over time. And I don't really do heavy graphical work with my phone, so I just need good enough performance. - Most of the focus on app compatibility is wasted on me. Android has a ton of apps, and theoretically I could learn Java and develop more of them... but, I don't like Java, and I don't like Android's development experience, and most of the apps I download are trying to hack support between my phone and my desktop anyway. Ironically, I would probably be able to get better integration and more useful software for a phone running Linux. When their campaign was first announced I know a lot of people (myself kind of included) were thinking "well, it's never going to compete with Android." And at some point, something flipped in my brain and I realized, "I don't care." It doesn't need market penetration, it just needs to be more useful for me. If they can build an experience of even just decent quality, then that'll be an improvement over my current Android situation. I've grown more to realize that I really value controlling my own software stack, and that the more I control my own software stack, the less I care about stuff like 3rd-party compatibility, because... well, it feeds into itself. I don't want to run much of that 3rd-party stuff anyway because I can't control it.
- flukus 8y ago
  > I could learn Java and develop more of them... but, I don't like Java, and I don't like Android's development experience This is the big selling point for me, android is the most insane platform to build software for I've ever experienced, I want to make apps but there is just too much tooling involved. With this I (hopefully) just need main.c and a makefile to start throwing stuff together. I also want a half way point between androids complete disregard for user privacy and apples walled garden. Give me a distro with safe vetted apps but let me out of that safe space when I want.
bo1024 8y ago
Very excited for this, but 5.7" is monstrously large. Still can't wait.
- icefo 8y ago
  5.2" is the maximum for me because if it's bigger I can't reach the top of the screen with my thumb holding the phone normally. Still wish them to succeed and I'd like to buy a "mini" librem phone in a few years
  - chupasaurus 8y ago
    Same to me, but I'm a backer. I already think about overriding screen resolution to pin down a screen. edited: typo
saagarjha 8y ago
I'm interested in what work they're doing on UI, rather than hardware design. Devices like these often lack polish, so I'm curious what solutions they've come up with.
freedomben 8y ago
I tried to fight off the urge to get excited about this phone but I can't anymore (been disappointed many times by linux-based phone plans). Librem, you now officially have a place in my hopes and dreams. I'm really excited. > As the implementation of the Librem 5 goes on, we are quite aware that time is limited given our January 2019 target, and we are therefore focusing on robustness and efficiency for the first version of the mobile UI shell (“phosh”), which we wish to push upstream to become the GNOME mobile shell. Terrific! I love Gnome shell and use it every day, and I'd love to have it on my phone. Those mocks looks great!
bscphil 8y ago
>We are now aiming for a 5.5″ to 5.7″ screen with a 18:9 ratio A 2:1 ratio?
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  2:1 phones already exist. If you're set on an unreasonably large diagonal, the extreme ratio helps, by making the phone thinner (left to right) than it would be with a normal ratio and the same size diagonal. It'd be even nicer if they'd do reasonably sized phones, though.
- Ethcad 8y ago
  Yeah, that’s a bit of an odd way to write it. I guess it’s intended to be easy to compare to 16:9, 21:9, etc.
jbk 8y ago
I, for one, don't understand the push for Gnome here. I am a backer of librem, and I really don't get it. KDE Plasma Mobile is something that actually cares about mobile, is developed by an actual community and still needs a lot of work. Developing another Mobile Shell, on Gnome (that don't seem to care about anything else than Linux desktop) feels like NIH and a waste of time and resources... Doing a Mobile Shell (+toolkits +all basic applications) that works reliably is a lot of work and doing it twice is a bit sad.
- _Codemonkeyism 8y ago
  As someone who is using Linux (on/off Desktop, continously on servers) since root.tgz times: Frameworks and window managers did their share to splinter and prevent Linux Desktop, why shouldn't we try again to prevent Linux mobile becoming a thing? But if this is a phone for Linux enthusiasts, why not?
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Nokia already tried this with Maemo/MeeGo, and they eventually bought Trolltech (and hence Qt) and went that route. Ubuntu Touch (although not a community project) also used Qt5. Sailfish OS (successor of Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin) also uses Qt. And both use libphys by Carsten Munk et al for the Android emulation layer (you are going to need backwards compatibility for your users). Why not follow the footsteps of giants instead of trying to reinvent your own path? Why not base your OS on either of these?
  - nwah1 8y ago
    The funny part is that Purism was originally going to be based on KDE, then they switched and said it would support both KDE and an in-house environment based on Gnome. Now they seem to be saying it will be based on the Gnome boondoggle. Can't say this gives me much faith in them. Totally agree about the wastefulness of coding your own UI from scratch.
- chrismorgan 8y ago
  The impression that I get, with no basis in data whatsoever, is that these days, people that explicitly like KDE use KDE, a few people with strong opinions or definite resource restrictions use other environments like XFCE, LXDE or a tiling window manager, and pretty much everyone else is using GNOME, and so the momentum is behind GNOME, with even Ubuntu recently switching back to GNOME. I think that this is targeting the sorts of people that are more likely to be familiar with and like GNOME than KDE, so there is advantage in using the same software, and producing software that will be able to, as depicted, run on a laptop as well as a phone without feeling out of place anywhere. Note also that they’re working with both GNOME and KDE, so that both will have first-class support: https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-gnome-and-kde-collaboration/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-gnome-and-kde-collaboration/, https://puri.sm/posts/gnome-and-kde-in-pureos-diversity-across-devices/ https://puri.sm/posts/gnome-and-kde-in-pureos-diversity-acro... (that latter link includes content very similar in meaning to my remarks above).
donttrack 8y ago
I am a bit sceptical. What kind of quantities are they shipping? I can’t imagine it will be hundreds of thousands. Even at quantities like 50.000 it seems to me it would be very difficult to source a custom designed screen/touch at a reasonable price. At 50.000 it would probably even be difficult to find someone even considering delivering the order
- sfotm 8y ago
  Why would they need a specially designed screen? I would guess that they're looking at what's on offer from various vendors and comparing them to see what works, right?
  - donttrack 8y ago
    Most of the time the touch and display is delivered as one module (similar to the iPhone where the whole front is one module) The front would probably need to be customized so it fits their design and they would probably need a flex designed also so it fits with their board design... maybe they are designing their board around an off the shelf display module? It’s usually a puzzle - not easy
- ac29 8y ago
  Based on the preorders here: https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ ... looks like less than 5000 units have been ordered.
lyrachord 8y ago
Why linux cannot produce a great UI?
philg_jr 8y ago
Does anyone have more info about the Librem 5's baseband? I know they say it will be separate from the app CPU and have hardware kill switches for all of the components/sensors, but I'd love to hear more about the firmware running on it.
- jlgaddis 8y ago
  I don't know anything at all about it to be honest, but I can assure you it won't be open. It'll almost certainly be the firmware provided by the chip manufacturer. If you're lucky, they'll have some (but likely very limited) ability to slightly modify/tweak it. That is the killer feature I'm waiting for in a mobile phone. Someday, I hope. (Hey, a guy can dream, right!?)
  - chupasaurus 8y ago
    AFAIK modems with open source firmware are banned in 100+ countries including US (I lost the source where I read about the global situation, in US there are FCC restrictions).
    - seba_dos1 8y ago
      Well, at best it could be "open" in a tivoized sense, but nothing more than that.
msl09 8y ago
> Not android For what reason?
- hawski 8y ago
  I think that they are aiming at using a mainline Linux kernel to make it resistant to the prevailing Android problem of lackluster updates.
- snvzz 8y ago
  Running mainline Linux is way harder as it requires decent support most android devices do not have. Linux almost implies Android will also work. It'll surely be an option.
- sfotm 8y ago
  Differentiating themselves within the market isn't too far from the list of reasons, I'd suspect. Who would be reading about this if it were just another Android mobile phone? This is targeting a small market of Linux enthusiasts with a different kind of operating system. If this were running Android, why wouldn't those enthusiasts just buy one of the market-leading phones and use a well-supported ROM?
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  Because then it would be a yet another completely unremarkable and uninteresting device with no reason to buy it, like other Android or iOS phones.

153 points by OberstKrueger 8y ago

I love the contacts integration. I wish there was also some way to send SMSes directly from your computer to your device without sending to a 3rd party (outside of your service provider and receiver).

craftyguy 8y ago
Considering the Librem5 is essentially Just Another Linux System, this would be fairly straight forward to implement... The most basic implementation would be something like a script that you run on your computer, that connects over SSH to the phone, and uses ofono's dbus interface to send a SMS. I haven't been as excited for a device as I am now since the N900.
- danShumway 8y ago
  > Considering the Librem5 is essentially Just Another Linux System, this would be fairly straight forward to implement This. The moment I started getting really excited for the Librem 5 was when I thought, "half of the problems I'm trying to solve for my phone right now are trivial to solve on this Raspberry Pi sitting next to me. Why isn't my phone running the same OS as the Pi then?"
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    I know, right? Developing anything on Android, for example, requires Java or Kotlin, tens of GB of SDK stuff and emulator images (if you don't have a device with the specific Android API you want to target), and using Android Studio or fighting with gradle manually. Or you could 'root' your device and fight with Android to run your arbitrary scripts in a severely reduced shell. I'm sure some Android dev is going to say "but what about blah blah new API new tools whatever?" in response to this.. but my workflow is autotools or meson (and for the Librem5 a crosscompiler) + vim. Or I could write shell scripts using a plethora of cmdline tools and not install anything extra to develop useful, powerful stuff for this device.
- mmjaa 8y ago
  I am excited for this phone, for one reason: that I may some day be able to VNC to it from my desktop and use it that way .. or, even better, set it up as a target for Synergy, and simple integrate it into my existing computer fleet as a first class citizen.
  - efigle2501 8y ago
    Question: is the included monitor in some packages advertising the fact that it can be used as a 'desktop' machine as well?
    - chrismorgan 8y ago
      https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ > Enabling the path for a true convergence device, capable to work as a phone, making video and audio calls, encrypted messaging, email, web browser, that can also become a full desktop computer with an option for a compatible keyboard, mouse, and monitor. It can be a desktop computer and phone all-in-one.
LeoPanthera 8y ago
In the Days Of Yore, before 3G, every cellular network operated an SMSC into which you could dial, with a standard modem, and send whatever texts you wanted to whoever you wanted. I assume this stopped being open because they figured out that they could charge to send an SMS.
chupasaurus 8y ago
In theory it's already there on Linux by using some overlay network (like ZeroNet[1] or ntop's n2n [2]) and KDE Connect (it has "Send SMS from desktop" feature) which works between desktops running K too. [1]https://github.com/zerotier/ZeroTierOne https://github.com/zerotier/ZeroTierOne [2]https://github.com/ntop/n2n https://github.com/ntop/n2n
konraditurbe 8y ago
Something like KDE Connect.

mattnewport 8y ago

Happy to hear they're going with a decent size battery over the thinnest possible form factor.

danShumway 8y ago

I'm pretty excited about the Librem 5, if it comes out even halfway decent it'll be my next phone. I'm basically banking on my current phone lasting just up until their release day. When they initially launched their campaign I was a little pessimistic about the whole thing. But since then I've realized a couple of things: - I really dislike the current trend in phone hardware, and Librem will fix most of those problems (kill switches, replaceable battery, etc...) - Most of the focus on the latest and greatest phone hardware is wasted on me, especially if I can control the entire software stack. Using Linux a lot has since taught me that high performance is often only necessary because large tech stacks with mandatory upgrades degrade heavily over time. And I don't really do heavy graphical work with my phone, so I just need good enough performance. - Most of the focus on app compatibility is wasted on me. Android has a ton of apps, and theoretically I could learn Java and develop more of them... but, I don't like Java, and I don't like Android's development experience, and most of the apps I download are trying to hack support between my phone and my desktop anyway. Ironically, I would probably be able to get better integration and more useful software for a phone running Linux. When their campaign was first announced I know a lot of people (myself kind of included) were thinking "well, it's never going to compete with Android." And at some point, something flipped in my brain and I realized, "I don't care." It doesn't need market penetration, it just needs to be more useful for me. If they can build an experience of even just decent quality, then that'll be an improvement over my current Android situation. I've grown more to realize that I really value controlling my own software stack, and that the more I control my own software stack, the less I care about stuff like 3rd-party compatibility, because... well, it feeds into itself. I don't want to run much of that 3rd-party stuff anyway because I can't control it.

flukus 8y ago
> I could learn Java and develop more of them... but, I don't like Java, and I don't like Android's development experience This is the big selling point for me, android is the most insane platform to build software for I've ever experienced, I want to make apps but there is just too much tooling involved. With this I (hopefully) just need main.c and a makefile to start throwing stuff together. I also want a half way point between androids complete disregard for user privacy and apples walled garden. Give me a distro with safe vetted apps but let me out of that safe space when I want.

bo1024 8y ago

Very excited for this, but 5.7" is monstrously large. Still can't wait.

icefo 8y ago
5.2" is the maximum for me because if it's bigger I can't reach the top of the screen with my thumb holding the phone normally. Still wish them to succeed and I'd like to buy a "mini" librem phone in a few years
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  Same to me, but I'm a backer. I already think about overriding screen resolution to pin down a screen. edited: typo

saagarjha 8y ago

I'm interested in what work they're doing on UI, rather than hardware design. Devices like these often lack polish, so I'm curious what solutions they've come up with.

freedomben 8y ago

I tried to fight off the urge to get excited about this phone but I can't anymore (been disappointed many times by linux-based phone plans). Librem, you now officially have a place in my hopes and dreams. I'm really excited. > As the implementation of the Librem 5 goes on, we are quite aware that time is limited given our January 2019 target, and we are therefore focusing on robustness and efficiency for the first version of the mobile UI shell (“phosh”), which we wish to push upstream to become the GNOME mobile shell. Terrific! I love Gnome shell and use it every day, and I'd love to have it on my phone. Those mocks looks great!

bscphil 8y ago

>We are now aiming for a 5.5″ to 5.7″ screen with a 18:9 ratio A 2:1 ratio?

thaumasiotes 8y ago
2:1 phones already exist. If you're set on an unreasonably large diagonal, the extreme ratio helps, by making the phone thinner (left to right) than it would be with a normal ratio and the same size diagonal. It'd be even nicer if they'd do reasonably sized phones, though.
Ethcad 8y ago
Yeah, that’s a bit of an odd way to write it. I guess it’s intended to be easy to compare to 16:9, 21:9, etc.

jbk 8y ago

I, for one, don't understand the push for Gnome here. I am a backer of librem, and I really don't get it. KDE Plasma Mobile is something that actually cares about mobile, is developed by an actual community and still needs a lot of work. Developing another Mobile Shell, on Gnome (that don't seem to care about anything else than Linux desktop) feels like NIH and a waste of time and resources... Doing a Mobile Shell (+toolkits +all basic applications) that works reliably is a lot of work and doing it twice is a bit sad.

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago
As someone who is using Linux (on/off Desktop, continously on servers) since root.tgz times: Frameworks and window managers did their share to splinter and prevent Linux Desktop, why shouldn't we try again to prevent Linux mobile becoming a thing? But if this is a phone for Linux enthusiasts, why not?
Fnoord 8y ago
Nokia already tried this with Maemo/MeeGo, and they eventually bought Trolltech (and hence Qt) and went that route. Ubuntu Touch (although not a community project) also used Qt5. Sailfish OS (successor of Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin) also uses Qt. And both use libphys by Carsten Munk et al for the Android emulation layer (you are going to need backwards compatibility for your users). Why not follow the footsteps of giants instead of trying to reinvent your own path? Why not base your OS on either of these?
- nwah1 8y ago
  The funny part is that Purism was originally going to be based on KDE, then they switched and said it would support both KDE and an in-house environment based on Gnome. Now they seem to be saying it will be based on the Gnome boondoggle. Can't say this gives me much faith in them. Totally agree about the wastefulness of coding your own UI from scratch.
chrismorgan 8y ago
The impression that I get, with no basis in data whatsoever, is that these days, people that explicitly like KDE use KDE, a few people with strong opinions or definite resource restrictions use other environments like XFCE, LXDE or a tiling window manager, and pretty much everyone else is using GNOME, and so the momentum is behind GNOME, with even Ubuntu recently switching back to GNOME. I think that this is targeting the sorts of people that are more likely to be familiar with and like GNOME than KDE, so there is advantage in using the same software, and producing software that will be able to, as depicted, run on a laptop as well as a phone without feeling out of place anywhere. Note also that they’re working with both GNOME and KDE, so that both will have first-class support: https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-gnome-and-kde-collaboration/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-gnome-and-kde-collaboration/, https://puri.sm/posts/gnome-and-kde-in-pureos-diversity-across-devices/ https://puri.sm/posts/gnome-and-kde-in-pureos-diversity-acro... (that latter link includes content very similar in meaning to my remarks above).

donttrack 8y ago

I am a bit sceptical. What kind of quantities are they shipping? I can’t imagine it will be hundreds of thousands. Even at quantities like 50.000 it seems to me it would be very difficult to source a custom designed screen/touch at a reasonable price. At 50.000 it would probably even be difficult to find someone even considering delivering the order

sfotm 8y ago
Why would they need a specially designed screen? I would guess that they're looking at what's on offer from various vendors and comparing them to see what works, right?
- donttrack 8y ago
  Most of the time the touch and display is delivered as one module (similar to the iPhone where the whole front is one module) The front would probably need to be customized so it fits their design and they would probably need a flex designed also so it fits with their board design... maybe they are designing their board around an off the shelf display module? It’s usually a puzzle - not easy
ac29 8y ago
Based on the preorders here: https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ ... looks like less than 5000 units have been ordered.

lyrachord 8y ago

Why linux cannot produce a great UI?

philg_jr 8y ago

Does anyone have more info about the Librem 5's baseband? I know they say it will be separate from the app CPU and have hardware kill switches for all of the components/sensors, but I'd love to hear more about the firmware running on it.

jlgaddis 8y ago
I don't know anything at all about it to be honest, but I can assure you it won't be open. It'll almost certainly be the firmware provided by the chip manufacturer. If you're lucky, they'll have some (but likely very limited) ability to slightly modify/tweak it. That is the killer feature I'm waiting for in a mobile phone. Someday, I hope. (Hey, a guy can dream, right!?)
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  AFAIK modems with open source firmware are banned in 100+ countries including US (I lost the source where I read about the global situation, in US there are FCC restrictions).
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    Well, at best it could be "open" in a tivoized sense, but nothing more than that.

msl09 8y ago

> Not android For what reason?

hawski 8y ago
I think that they are aiming at using a mainline Linux kernel to make it resistant to the prevailing Android problem of lackluster updates.
snvzz 8y ago
Running mainline Linux is way harder as it requires decent support most android devices do not have. Linux almost implies Android will also work. It'll surely be an option.
sfotm 8y ago
Differentiating themselves within the market isn't too far from the list of reasons, I'd suspect. Who would be reading about this if it were just another Android mobile phone? This is targeting a small market of Linux enthusiasts with a different kind of operating system. If this were running Android, why wouldn't those enthusiasts just buy one of the market-leading phones and use a well-supported ROM?
seba_dos1 8y ago
Because then it would be a yet another completely unremarkable and uninteresting device with no reason to buy it, like other Android or iOS phones.