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Which makes WAY more sense than a range outside of human hearing that OP implicated ("inaudible"). Expecting TV's to play tones outside the range people can he

Which makes WAY more sense than a range outside of human hearing that OP implicated ("inaudible"). Expecting TV's to play tones outside the range people can hear is ridiculous.

shawn 9y ago
"Inaudible" doesn't necessarily mean a range outside of human hearing. For example you could embed a 6kHz tone in a way that's inaudible to humans due to the other frequencies in the waveform.
- sideshowb 9y ago
  And promptly lose it to lossy compression
jimrandomh 9y ago
TV channels already contain inaudible-sound identifiers. Nielsen has people put listeners in their homes, and uses the identifiers to track which channels are getting played.
- buro9 9y ago
  Er... holy shit to the thought that (Alexa|Assistant|Siri) + Neilsen (or just by Google) could monitor advert viewing in millions of homes.
  - taneq 9y ago
    I thought a few apps had been discovered over the years that fingerprinted TV ads played near the phone and reported them? https://www.howtogeek.com/338409/hundreds-of-smartphone-apps-are-spying-on-your-tv-watching.-heres-how-to-disable-them/ https://www.howtogeek.com/338409/hundreds-of-smartphone-apps...
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    To scare you further, multiple brands and models of “SmartTVs” have the ability to fingerprint what is displayed on the screen and report back to a cloud service. Said services are also, not surprisingly, poorly secured.
- jedberg 9y ago
  > and uses the identifiers to track which channels are getting played. I don't think they're using infrasound for that. I think they use a technology similar to Shazam where it just analyzes the sound to determine what's on.
  - amitparikh 9y ago
    They are, it's one of the reasons they [Nielsen] bought Arbitron back in 2013. The PPM devices use low-frequency tones encoded into the audio stream at the time of broadcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_People_Meter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_People_Meter
- jdietrich 9y ago
  You can't count on a TV being able to reproduce sounds below about 100Hz or above about 16kHz. The position of the speakers on the back of the TV means you're likely to get a lot of weird phase effects and many TVs have quite heavy audio DSP to compensate for the inadequacy of their speakers. Any hidden signals will need to be in-band and low bit rate with a high level of redundancy.
  - derefr 9y ago
    So, basically, steganography.
  - tinus_hn 9y ago
    You can even less expect all the compression in the system that’s designed to leave out everything people can’t hear, to leave in this signal people can’t hear.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Sometimes they're fairly audible; try listening closely to re-runs of Arrested Development as an example, there are scenes with fairly loud high-pitched noises which I believe were listened for by some phone apps to try estimating viewership.
derefr 9y ago
Interestingly, though, if psychoacoustic compression was used in when reuploading a video, that 3000-6000Hz range might actually be restored—it’s less information if it’s there than if it’s not. Similarly, if the video is heard through a phone line, the call might be using a symbolic voice codec, which would also restore the range (in the sense that it’s not even storing sound, just phonemes.)

Which makes WAY more sense than a range outside of human hearing that OP implicated ("inaudible"). Expecting TV's to play tones outside the range people can hear is ridiculous.

shawn 9y ago

"Inaudible" doesn't necessarily mean a range outside of human hearing. For example you could embed a 6kHz tone in a way that's inaudible to humans due to the other frequencies in the waveform.

sideshowb 9y ago
And promptly lose it to lossy compression

jimrandomh 9y ago

TV channels already contain inaudible-sound identifiers. Nielsen has people put listeners in their homes, and uses the identifiers to track which channels are getting played.

buro9 9y ago
Er... holy shit to the thought that (Alexa|Assistant|Siri) + Neilsen (or just by Google) could monitor advert viewing in millions of homes.
- taneq 9y ago
  I thought a few apps had been discovered over the years that fingerprinted TV ads played near the phone and reported them? https://www.howtogeek.com/338409/hundreds-of-smartphone-apps-are-spying-on-your-tv-watching.-heres-how-to-disable-them/ https://www.howtogeek.com/338409/hundreds-of-smartphone-apps...
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  To scare you further, multiple brands and models of “SmartTVs” have the ability to fingerprint what is displayed on the screen and report back to a cloud service. Said services are also, not surprisingly, poorly secured.
jedberg 9y ago
> and uses the identifiers to track which channels are getting played. I don't think they're using infrasound for that. I think they use a technology similar to Shazam where it just analyzes the sound to determine what's on.
- amitparikh 9y ago
  They are, it's one of the reasons they [Nielsen] bought Arbitron back in 2013. The PPM devices use low-frequency tones encoded into the audio stream at the time of broadcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_People_Meter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_People_Meter
jdietrich 9y ago
You can't count on a TV being able to reproduce sounds below about 100Hz or above about 16kHz. The position of the speakers on the back of the TV means you're likely to get a lot of weird phase effects and many TVs have quite heavy audio DSP to compensate for the inadequacy of their speakers. Any hidden signals will need to be in-band and low bit rate with a high level of redundancy.
- derefr 9y ago
  So, basically, steganography.
- tinus_hn 9y ago
  You can even less expect all the compression in the system that’s designed to leave out everything people can’t hear, to leave in this signal people can’t hear.
leggomylibro 9y ago
Sometimes they're fairly audible; try listening closely to re-runs of Arrested Development as an example, there are scenes with fairly loud high-pitched noises which I believe were listened for by some phone apps to try estimating viewership.

derefr 9y ago

Interestingly, though, if psychoacoustic compression was used in when reuploading a video, that 3000-6000Hz range might actually be restored—it’s less information if it’s there than if it’s not. Similarly, if the video is heard through a phone line, the call might be using a symbolic voice codec, which would also restore the range (in the sense that it’s not even storing sound, just phonemes.)