4 ms·

One problem with this is that a lot of the problems people experience with their Internet service (slow speeds, latency) are due to problems (overcrowding, poor

One problem with this is that a lot of the problems people experience with their Internet service (slow speeds, latency) are due to problems (overcrowding, poorly maintained infrastructure) in the last mile. Unless the municipality is well incentived to fix problems this can be even worse for the end user - the ISP blames the Muni and vice versa and nothing gets fixed. Note that I actually agree that this is a good and maybe the best solution and is actually what I have at home (10 GB fiber on a last mile access network with multiple ISP options! In the U.S., even!) Just pointing out a risk.

Retric 8y ago
I disagree. Last mile is just bandwidth and a router, what people complain about is mostly between the last mile and the internet. Netflix slow even though your have X0+Mbit connection on a speed test? That's what people want to fix.
- grahamburger 8y ago
  Respectfully, I've been building these networks for about 15 years. I assure you that the last mile is often (but not always!) the problem.
  - Retric 8y ago
    In the last 10 years I have had last mile issues once if you include a firmware update on a router taking a while. That may be an outlier, but last mile networks should be stable consider the phone system used to just work? On average less than 5 miles of wiring should almost never have issues. Why is the website down when it's up for other people? Why is my BitTorrent being disconnected? Why is the video stuttering? Where is this lagg coming from? Why is Netflix look like crap? Yea, those are not last mile problems.
    - grahamburger 8y ago
      > Why is the website down when it's up for other people? Why is my BitTorrent being disconnected? Why is the video stuttering? Where is this lagg coming from? Why is Netflix look like crap? Literally all of these things are very commonly last mile problems. (but again, not always.) Consider what happens when a connection on the last mile network starts to get congested and/or underperform due to a physical problem (like an old/degraded copper line.) The provider can either upgrade/fix the network (expensive, time consuming, not profitable in the short term) or they can implement traffic control on that segment. The traffic control could be a high burstable rate with a much lower committed rate. In that situation browsing will feel snappy and speed tests will be good, but downloads and video streams will be slow and buffer. Problem solved from the provider's end - they can point to the speed test as evidence that they're providing what you're paying for and blame the streaming provider for the buffering, and they don't need to spend anything to solve the over-congestion problem! And they're not even breaking net neutrality! But experience for the customer is bad.
      - Retric 8y ago
        I think you're confused about what last miles means. It's the part of the network that's not shared. In cable networks it stops at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_drop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_drop. It may in fact exist entirely inside an large apartment complex. From a networking standpoint all networks look the same at that point as it's before any form of routing. In no way can you get "Why is the website down when it's up for other people?" from a last mile segment you can see everything or nothing. PS: HD Streaming video also qualifies as low bandwith now days. Even 4K is not bad, you can run 40+ of them on a 1Gbit connection.
        grahamburger 8y ago
        I am not confused, but I do think that we are working from different definitions of last-mile. Your definition of last-mile is a fine and probably more literal one, but I don't think it's very useful when talking about municipal last-mile networks. If the municipal network only extended from the service-drop to the home then each ISP would still need lines run all through the city. In my case for example the 'last-mile' fiber access network has a pedestal in the street every few blocks across several cities - it's a very large network. The ISPs connect at the edges of that network and provide IP to any home connected to it. Also, fwiw it certainly is possible for a problem at the last mile even in your definition to cause a site to be inaccessible for you and not others. A bad route or a frame size problem for example can cause exactly that. Consider for example the recent problems with AT&T and 1.1.1.1 - AT&T customers couldn't use that site while others could and it was all because of a last-mile problem.

Retric 8y ago

I disagree. Last mile is just bandwidth and a router, what people complain about is mostly between the last mile and the internet. Netflix slow even though your have X0+Mbit connection on a speed test? That's what people want to fix.

grahamburger 8y ago
Respectfully, I've been building these networks for about 15 years. I assure you that the last mile is often (but not always!) the problem.
- Retric 8y ago
  In the last 10 years I have had last mile issues once if you include a firmware update on a router taking a while. That may be an outlier, but last mile networks should be stable consider the phone system used to just work? On average less than 5 miles of wiring should almost never have issues. Why is the website down when it's up for other people? Why is my BitTorrent being disconnected? Why is the video stuttering? Where is this lagg coming from? Why is Netflix look like crap? Yea, those are not last mile problems.
  - grahamburger 8y ago
    > Why is the website down when it's up for other people? Why is my BitTorrent being disconnected? Why is the video stuttering? Where is this lagg coming from? Why is Netflix look like crap? Literally all of these things are very commonly last mile problems. (but again, not always.) Consider what happens when a connection on the last mile network starts to get congested and/or underperform due to a physical problem (like an old/degraded copper line.) The provider can either upgrade/fix the network (expensive, time consuming, not profitable in the short term) or they can implement traffic control on that segment. The traffic control could be a high burstable rate with a much lower committed rate. In that situation browsing will feel snappy and speed tests will be good, but downloads and video streams will be slow and buffer. Problem solved from the provider's end - they can point to the speed test as evidence that they're providing what you're paying for and blame the streaming provider for the buffering, and they don't need to spend anything to solve the over-congestion problem! And they're not even breaking net neutrality! But experience for the customer is bad.
    - Retric 8y ago
      I think you're confused about what last miles means. It's the part of the network that's not shared. In cable networks it stops at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_drop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_drop. It may in fact exist entirely inside an large apartment complex. From a networking standpoint all networks look the same at that point as it's before any form of routing. In no way can you get "Why is the website down when it's up for other people?" from a last mile segment you can see everything or nothing. PS: HD Streaming video also qualifies as low bandwith now days. Even 4K is not bad, you can run 40+ of them on a 1Gbit connection.
      - grahamburger 8y ago
        I am not confused, but I do think that we are working from different definitions of last-mile. Your definition of last-mile is a fine and probably more literal one, but I don't think it's very useful when talking about municipal last-mile networks. If the municipal network only extended from the service-drop to the home then each ISP would still need lines run all through the city. In my case for example the 'last-mile' fiber access network has a pedestal in the street every few blocks across several cities - it's a very large network. The ISPs connect at the edges of that network and provide IP to any home connected to it. Also, fwiw it certainly is possible for a problem at the last mile even in your definition to cause a site to be inaccessible for you and not others. A bad route or a frame size problem for example can cause exactly that. Consider for example the recent problems with AT&T and 1.1.1.1 - AT&T customers couldn't use that site while others could and it was all because of a last-mile problem.