5 ms·

General FYI: most/all System76 hardware is actually rebranded models from Clevo, so the build quality issues people are discussing aren't that surprising. For

by paulmd 9y ago

General FYI: most/all System76 hardware is actually rebranded models from Clevo, so the build quality issues people are discussing aren't that surprising. For example, the "Galago Pro" is actually a Clevo N130WU. https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://system76.com/laptops/galago https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Intel-UHD-Graphics-620-Custom-Laptop/Configure/11544736 https://www.avadirect.com/Clevo-N130WU-13-3-QHD-Core-i7-Inte... Some googling suggests the Serval WS is a Clevo P775DM3-G, and the Oryx Pro is a Clevo P650SE. People upthread were wondering how they're doing all that with just 21 people or whatever, that's how. They slap a new label on Clevo hardware and dress it up with some nice photos. Most of those 21 people are probably web developers, marketing/photographers, and warehouse staff. They might not even be doing their own firmware updates, they might just be getting Clevo to deliver specific features for them. Maybe they are doing some minor OS customization, or EFI tweaks to help Linux compatibility, but they can't be doing all that much work with 21 people to spread between development and normal sales/warehouse work.

monocasa 9y ago
FWIW, they're supposedly switching from rebranded Clevos to their own custom laptops soon.
- dmead 9y ago
  They have been saying that for two years.
  - cassidyjames 9y ago
    And it's been something we've been working on for more than two years. Building a US-based manufacturing plant from the ground up is a long process, but it will be worth it in the end. You can come by the factory in Denver, Colorado and see where we are! The entire company is relocating to the factory in June, and we're currently building our latest prototypes designed by the team.
    - leesalminen 9y ago
      I’m up in Boulder and would absolutely enjoy a tour!
    - dmead 9y ago
      I'll pass. I almost bought a system76 several times and at no point was it made obvious these are re-packaged Chinese white label machines.
      - acct1771 9y ago
        Why would the company benefit from making that obvious, in an industry where that behavior is the de facto standard, and their competitors make billions doing just that?
        dmead 9y ago
        they wouldn't of course, but their competitors aren't doing this. unless you can point me to the company that actually makes.. say dell's (or whoever's) laptops.
cassidyjames 9y ago
System76 UX architect here! This vastly trivializes the work System76 does for months and sometimes years leading up to a product release. We don't simply take an off-the-shelf product that already exists, throw an OS on it, and sell it. System76 works with upstream manufacturers (like, yes, Clevo for laptops) to determine what types of products to develop, including their specifications, design, etc. for months up to a release. These products do not exist before we enter into these conversations. Once that has been determined, designed, and goes into production, we start on firmware. We ensure all components are working together and with the Linux kernel (often requiring changes to the components' low level interactions with the OS, since the upstream components themselves are often manufactured with the assumption they will be used by Windows). Once that is complete, we test with Ubuntu and Pop!_OS specifically, ensuring the OS is working perfectly with the hardware. If there are any OS-specific changes to be done, we write that behavior into Pop!_OS and/or our "driver" which is preloaded on all machines (and available in any Ubuntu-based distro, Arch, Fedora, etc.), with the intent to upstream that into Ubuntu, GNOME, and/or Linux itself as quickly as possible. When this is more generic like ensuring HiDPI works great out of the box, this actually ends up benefiting competitors like Dell's XPS 13 probably as much as it benefits us, but we put in the effort to file the bugs, track them, write the code, and get it upstreamed. Once all of that is complete, we finally offer it for purchase and market it with all of our pretty photographs, sales pages, etc. What ends up happening, then, is Clevo offers a machine with a similar-looking chassis for sale as a barebones laptop. This is the result partially of the decision making System76 has made for what to produce in the first place. These products, however, do not contain any of the firmware or driver work that System76 has invested in. They do benefit from the nice photography and advertising System76 has done, and since they look similar, people assume they're going to get the same machine for cheaper "directly from the manufacturer." Edit: regardless, this is a bit beside the point of the linked blog post, and is also becoming less and less true as we work on designing and manufacturing our products completely in-house.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > System76 works with upstream manufacturers (like, yes, Clevo for laptops) to determine what types of products to develop, including their specifications, design, etc. for months up to a release. These products do not exist before we enter into these conversations. What do you mean by "products"? Is it a particular combination of a specific barebones Clevo laptop installed with specific components (make+model) picked by System76? > Once that has been determined, designed, and goes into production, we start on firmware. We ensure all components are working together and with the Linux kernel (often requiring changes to the components' low level interactions with the OS, since the upstream components themselves are often manufactured with the assumption they will be used by Windows). What do you mean by "ensure all components are working together"? Do you mean check whether a component is already supported by linux and in case the support is iffy the System76 staff picks some other component (make+model) that's better supported?

by paulmd 9y ago

monocasa 9y ago

FWIW, they're supposedly switching from rebranded Clevos to their own custom laptops soon.

dmead 9y ago
They have been saying that for two years.
- cassidyjames 9y ago
  And it's been something we've been working on for more than two years. Building a US-based manufacturing plant from the ground up is a long process, but it will be worth it in the end. You can come by the factory in Denver, Colorado and see where we are! The entire company is relocating to the factory in June, and we're currently building our latest prototypes designed by the team.
  - leesalminen 9y ago
    I’m up in Boulder and would absolutely enjoy a tour!
  - dmead 9y ago
    I'll pass. I almost bought a system76 several times and at no point was it made obvious these are re-packaged Chinese white label machines.
    - acct1771 9y ago
      Why would the company benefit from making that obvious, in an industry where that behavior is the de facto standard, and their competitors make billions doing just that?
      - dmead 9y ago
        they wouldn't of course, but their competitors aren't doing this. unless you can point me to the company that actually makes.. say dell's (or whoever's) laptops.

cassidyjames 9y ago

System76 UX architect here! This vastly trivializes the work System76 does for months and sometimes years leading up to a product release. We don't simply take an off-the-shelf product that already exists, throw an OS on it, and sell it. System76 works with upstream manufacturers (like, yes, Clevo for laptops) to determine what types of products to develop, including their specifications, design, etc. for months up to a release. These products do not exist before we enter into these conversations. Once that has been determined, designed, and goes into production, we start on firmware. We ensure all components are working together and with the Linux kernel (often requiring changes to the components' low level interactions with the OS, since the upstream components themselves are often manufactured with the assumption they will be used by Windows). Once that is complete, we test with Ubuntu and Pop!_OS specifically, ensuring the OS is working perfectly with the hardware. If there are any OS-specific changes to be done, we write that behavior into Pop!_OS and/or our "driver" which is preloaded on all machines (and available in any Ubuntu-based distro, Arch, Fedora, etc.), with the intent to upstream that into Ubuntu, GNOME, and/or Linux itself as quickly as possible. When this is more generic like ensuring HiDPI works great out of the box, this actually ends up benefiting competitors like Dell's XPS 13 probably as much as it benefits us, but we put in the effort to file the bugs, track them, write the code, and get it upstreamed. Once all of that is complete, we finally offer it for purchase and market it with all of our pretty photographs, sales pages, etc. What ends up happening, then, is Clevo offers a machine with a similar-looking chassis for sale as a barebones laptop. This is the result partially of the decision making System76 has made for what to produce in the first place. These products, however, do not contain any of the firmware or driver work that System76 has invested in. They do benefit from the nice photography and advertising System76 has done, and since they look similar, people assume they're going to get the same machine for cheaper "directly from the manufacturer." Edit: regardless, this is a bit beside the point of the linked blog post, and is also becoming less and less true as we work on designing and manufacturing our products completely in-house.

geezerjay 9y ago
> System76 works with upstream manufacturers (like, yes, Clevo for laptops) to determine what types of products to develop, including their specifications, design, etc. for months up to a release. These products do not exist before we enter into these conversations. What do you mean by "products"? Is it a particular combination of a specific barebones Clevo laptop installed with specific components (make+model) picked by System76? > Once that has been determined, designed, and goes into production, we start on firmware. We ensure all components are working together and with the Linux kernel (often requiring changes to the components' low level interactions with the OS, since the upstream components themselves are often manufactured with the assumption they will be used by Windows). What do you mean by "ensure all components are working together"? Do you mean check whether a component is already supported by linux and in case the support is iffy the System76 staff picks some other component (make+model) that's better supported?