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The Gilbert had an electric motor with various power takeoffs. There's no doubt that Lego, with their immense popularity, has every imaginable add-on. But to m

The Gilbert had an electric motor with various power takeoffs. There's no doubt that Lego, with their immense popularity, has every imaginable add-on. But to me, snapping brightly colored plastic bricks together with plastic wheels just makes plastic toys. It doesn't tickle my engineering sensibilities, while screwing together girders and brackets and metal pulleys produce things that look (and behave) like machines. Granted, putting the tiny nuts on the tiny bolts could be difficult for young hands, but I got very good at it. These days I see even teenagers who have problems getting a large nut started on a bolt, and/or have difficulty using a screwdriver.

SirHound 8y ago
The constraints of a medium are often the appeal. Not to mention, a quick glance over Gilbert stuff and it strikes me as utterly charmless. The global and universal appeal of Lego is clear in comparison.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > utterly charmless Really? I find them utterly beguiling :-) http://www.girdersandgears.com/models/hs-stabilstreetcar.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/models/hs-stabilstreetcar.htm... http://www.girdersandgears.com/erector-zeppelin.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/erector-zeppelin.html > global ... appeal of Lego Oh, I know. It just falls flat with me. I'd happily decorate my office with Gilbert constructions like the pictures linked, but never Lego ones.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Oh, man, a 28! I used to take that tram to school. I'm not trying to "show you wrong" or anything like that (unlike the idiots who downvoted you I have no problem with your preference for Erector), but curiously, the real thing is colorful (and mostly made of wood, not metal): https://oranatravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/tram-28-lisbon-cathedral.jpg https://oranatravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/tram-28-l...
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      I love clanky, rattling, screeching, grinding old streetcars, too! > idiots who downvoted you No problem with that, I knew I'd be stepping in it to post my distaste for Legos. I've put together many Lego sets over the years for others who were a bit too young for them, and found them tedious and the results something I'd prefer to discard. A spaceship that looks like a stack of bricks is not appealing, and they'd just fall apart when the kids would try to play with them.
      - Bendingo 8y ago
        > they'd just fall apart Agree. I had Meccano sets as a kid - best toy/kit ever! Wish I still had them.
vertex-four 8y ago
I don't think that creating machines out of metal is inherently "more real engineering" than creating them out of plastic - both are more-or-less irrelevant to engineering as a discipline, and it seems that people can build things of rather incredible complexity in Lego. Perhaps early familiarity with screws and whatnot might make building shelves a bit easier, but... frankly speaking, if you can't figure out how to use a basic set of tools just by looking at them and figuring out which parts fit in which holes - or figuring out that there might be a video on youtube to explain how to do whatever you're doing - there's bigger issues than which set of toys you grew up with. If that's the case, your entire learning environment from ages 2 to 25 has failed to provide you with the tools to understand how to gain knowledge, and whether you were provided with Lego or Meccano isn't going to help you cope with life.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > whether you were provided with Lego or Meccano isn't going to help you cope with life. That sure escalated quickly :-)
- DanBC 8y ago
  My reply isn't connected to benefits and disadvantages of Lego vs other construction toys. > if you can't figure out how to use a basic set of tools just by looking at them Reading the thread[1] about types of screw heads shows that many people don't in fact understand much about screws. I'm pretty sure that most (not all!) HN users don't know how to correctly use different types of screw driver. And we haven't got to "advanced" stuff like choice of types of washers and locking mechanisms. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17011388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17011388
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    It turns out for young hands to be surprisingly difficult to use a screwdriver. The blade has to be held in the slot without slipping out, a normal force applied along with a twisting one. After a while one learns to spin the screwdriver with the fingers while keeping it in the slot. Not to mention the feel of getting the tiny nut threaded on to begin with. It takes the kids a while, and they get frustrated. Legos have the appeal that such skills are not necessary.
nkrisc 8y ago
And do the mechanisms shown in the linked article not tickle your engineering sensibilities? Because they're made of plastic? Take a look on YouTube for LEGO GBC (great ball contraption) and you'll see the engineering that goes into some LEGO constructions.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > not tickle Right. > Because they're made of plastic? Yes, but more than that. It's the bright colors and the toyish appearance that is just off-putting. For comparison, take a tour through the Deutsches Museum in Munich at the industrial machinery on display. Many look like steampunk contraptions, and Gilbert echoes that look. None of them look like Legos.
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    So it's merely an aesthetic objection you have, as opposed to any real engineering merits LEGO may or may not have? That's fair, you're entitled to your opinion, though I find it to be pretty shallow view to take on the subject of engineering. It doesn't conform to your cultural views of what "real" engineering is versus mere "toys." Society has taught us that real engineering must be metal and stark, while only children's toys may be colorful.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      There is a bit more to it. One quickly learns the basics of triangular truss construction with Gilbert (otherwise your structure folds up), while one pretty much only learns to interlock the bricks with Lego. Bricks neither look nor behave much like machine parts. > pretty shallow When your only material is a brick, every construction looks like another brick wall. A locomotive that looks like a stack of bricks doesn't aesthetically appeal to me. (The primary colors of the bricks don't help.) So yah, shallow I am :-)
      - nkrisc 8y ago
        > One quickly learns the basics of triangular truss construction with Gilbert If you're building something large with LEGO Technic pieces you will very quickly come to the same conclusions. > When your only material is a brick That hasn't been true of LEGO for a very long time. While the individual parts may resemble bricks, I can assure large LEGO constructions (that aren't just sculptures) are not merely stacks of bricks. I would not call this a mere stack of bricks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j90RaW7DLP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j90RaW7DLP8
andrepd 8y ago
Have you ever built a moderately complex piece with LEGO? Or are you just dismissing LEGO for being "brightly coloured" and therefore not engineer-y enough as "metal nuts and bolts" for the sake of being made of metal?
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  Yes - a couple of the more expensive Star Wars sets and some others. It was never long before they disintegrated back into bricks and rubble.
  - andrepd 8y ago
    I was thinking specifically of Technic pieces, and by "build" I meant design and build it yourself, not build a set. I think you'll find that to be quite the engineering feat, to build something moderately complex.
bitwize 8y ago
You're overlooking the Technic sets, which let you build real machiney machines. Plastic machines, yes, but working ones; in addition to the motorized vehicles and such (often with things like working gearboxes), back in the 80s, there was a Mindstorms predecessor that let you connect Lego sensors and motors to a box that was controlled by an Apple II computer and write programs in a Logo dialect. (The word "Mindstorms" comes from Seymour Papert, who collaborated with Lego.) Enterprising kids built working, computer-controlled pen plotters, model cranes, mechanical arms, even a replica of the original Logo "turtle" (a wheeled robot with a retractable pen that drew on paper on the floor). There's like a huge ecosystem for this stuff, and it all interoperates seamlessly with the normal brick Lego pieces. I see Lego and Meccano as optimizing for different variables: Meccano for verisimilitude, and Lego for ease of assembly and reconfiguration.

SirHound 8y ago

The constraints of a medium are often the appeal. Not to mention, a quick glance over Gilbert stuff and it strikes me as utterly charmless. The global and universal appeal of Lego is clear in comparison.

skookumchuck 8y ago
> utterly charmless Really? I find them utterly beguiling :-) http://www.girdersandgears.com/models/hs-stabilstreetcar.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/models/hs-stabilstreetcar.htm... http://www.girdersandgears.com/erector-zeppelin.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/erector-zeppelin.html > global ... appeal of Lego Oh, I know. It just falls flat with me. I'd happily decorate my office with Gilbert constructions like the pictures linked, but never Lego ones.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Oh, man, a 28! I used to take that tram to school. I'm not trying to "show you wrong" or anything like that (unlike the idiots who downvoted you I have no problem with your preference for Erector), but curiously, the real thing is colorful (and mostly made of wood, not metal): https://oranatravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/tram-28-lisbon-cathedral.jpg https://oranatravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/tram-28-l...
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    I love clanky, rattling, screeching, grinding old streetcars, too! > idiots who downvoted you No problem with that, I knew I'd be stepping in it to post my distaste for Legos. I've put together many Lego sets over the years for others who were a bit too young for them, and found them tedious and the results something I'd prefer to discard. A spaceship that looks like a stack of bricks is not appealing, and they'd just fall apart when the kids would try to play with them.
    - Bendingo 8y ago
      > they'd just fall apart Agree. I had Meccano sets as a kid - best toy/kit ever! Wish I still had them.

vertex-four 8y ago

I don't think that creating machines out of metal is inherently "more real engineering" than creating them out of plastic - both are more-or-less irrelevant to engineering as a discipline, and it seems that people can build things of rather incredible complexity in Lego. Perhaps early familiarity with screws and whatnot might make building shelves a bit easier, but... frankly speaking, if you can't figure out how to use a basic set of tools just by looking at them and figuring out which parts fit in which holes - or figuring out that there might be a video on youtube to explain how to do whatever you're doing - there's bigger issues than which set of toys you grew up with. If that's the case, your entire learning environment from ages 2 to 25 has failed to provide you with the tools to understand how to gain knowledge, and whether you were provided with Lego or Meccano isn't going to help you cope with life.

skookumchuck 8y ago
> whether you were provided with Lego or Meccano isn't going to help you cope with life. That sure escalated quickly :-)
DanBC 8y ago
My reply isn't connected to benefits and disadvantages of Lego vs other construction toys. > if you can't figure out how to use a basic set of tools just by looking at them Reading the thread[1] about types of screw heads shows that many people don't in fact understand much about screws. I'm pretty sure that most (not all!) HN users don't know how to correctly use different types of screw driver. And we haven't got to "advanced" stuff like choice of types of washers and locking mechanisms. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17011388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17011388
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  It turns out for young hands to be surprisingly difficult to use a screwdriver. The blade has to be held in the slot without slipping out, a normal force applied along with a twisting one. After a while one learns to spin the screwdriver with the fingers while keeping it in the slot. Not to mention the feel of getting the tiny nut threaded on to begin with. It takes the kids a while, and they get frustrated. Legos have the appeal that such skills are not necessary.

nkrisc 8y ago

And do the mechanisms shown in the linked article not tickle your engineering sensibilities? Because they're made of plastic? Take a look on YouTube for LEGO GBC (great ball contraption) and you'll see the engineering that goes into some LEGO constructions.

skookumchuck 8y ago
> not tickle Right. > Because they're made of plastic? Yes, but more than that. It's the bright colors and the toyish appearance that is just off-putting. For comparison, take a tour through the Deutsches Museum in Munich at the industrial machinery on display. Many look like steampunk contraptions, and Gilbert echoes that look. None of them look like Legos.
- nkrisc 8y ago
  So it's merely an aesthetic objection you have, as opposed to any real engineering merits LEGO may or may not have? That's fair, you're entitled to your opinion, though I find it to be pretty shallow view to take on the subject of engineering. It doesn't conform to your cultural views of what "real" engineering is versus mere "toys." Society has taught us that real engineering must be metal and stark, while only children's toys may be colorful.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    There is a bit more to it. One quickly learns the basics of triangular truss construction with Gilbert (otherwise your structure folds up), while one pretty much only learns to interlock the bricks with Lego. Bricks neither look nor behave much like machine parts. > pretty shallow When your only material is a brick, every construction looks like another brick wall. A locomotive that looks like a stack of bricks doesn't aesthetically appeal to me. (The primary colors of the bricks don't help.) So yah, shallow I am :-)
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      > One quickly learns the basics of triangular truss construction with Gilbert If you're building something large with LEGO Technic pieces you will very quickly come to the same conclusions. > When your only material is a brick That hasn't been true of LEGO for a very long time. While the individual parts may resemble bricks, I can assure large LEGO constructions (that aren't just sculptures) are not merely stacks of bricks. I would not call this a mere stack of bricks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j90RaW7DLP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j90RaW7DLP8

andrepd 8y ago

Have you ever built a moderately complex piece with LEGO? Or are you just dismissing LEGO for being "brightly coloured" and therefore not engineer-y enough as "metal nuts and bolts" for the sake of being made of metal?

skookumchuck 8y ago
Yes - a couple of the more expensive Star Wars sets and some others. It was never long before they disintegrated back into bricks and rubble.
- andrepd 8y ago
  I was thinking specifically of Technic pieces, and by "build" I meant design and build it yourself, not build a set. I think you'll find that to be quite the engineering feat, to build something moderately complex.

bitwize 8y ago

You're overlooking the Technic sets, which let you build real machiney machines. Plastic machines, yes, but working ones; in addition to the motorized vehicles and such (often with things like working gearboxes), back in the 80s, there was a Mindstorms predecessor that let you connect Lego sensors and motors to a box that was controlled by an Apple II computer and write programs in a Logo dialect. (The word "Mindstorms" comes from Seymour Papert, who collaborated with Lego.) Enterprising kids built working, computer-controlled pen plotters, model cranes, mechanical arms, even a replica of the original Logo "turtle" (a wheeled robot with a retractable pen that drew on paper on the floor). There's like a huge ecosystem for this stuff, and it all interoperates seamlessly with the normal brick Lego pieces. I see Lego and Meccano as optimizing for different variables: Meccano for verisimilitude, and Lego for ease of assembly and reconfiguration.