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Which is why men who aren’t able to read those boundaries prefer to simply avoid getting anywhere near those boundaries. The easiest way of not transgressing is

Which is why men who aren’t able to read those boundaries prefer to simply avoid getting anywhere near those boundaries. The easiest way of not transgressing is to avoid contact altogether.

yosito 8y ago
Reasonable enough, but if that's the case, we should be blaming the avoidance on men for their social incompetence, not on women for having boundaries.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  What exactly does a man get for going out of his way like you suggest? Most of the time, nothing. Unless I can read that a woman is receptive to friendship, trying to befriend women because they're women is time better spent on working. It's a two-way street, and while I have had my share of female friends, the majority of women are either not receptive(i.e. won't give men the benefit of the doubt) or content to wait for men to take the initiative.
  - yosito 8y ago
    A man is not entitled to get anything. And if he's trying to get something, that seems like a pretty good reason for a woman to not be receptive to him. How many times have you walked past a homeless person trying to be "friendly" because you knew their motivation was to get something from you? I'm a man, nerdy, below average attractiveness, but a majority of my friends are women because I don't approach them trying to get something, and I've found that a majority of women are extremely receptive to being friends.
    - ravenstine 8y ago
      Of course they're not entitled to get anything, but a reasonable person doesn't continue performing the same action when it benefits them in no way. There's nothing irrational about a man not going out of his way to befriend women in the workplace because he's had bad luck doing it, or because of the risks he's not going to have befriending other men. If you have a lot of women as friends, that's great. Your experience is not the experience of a lot of men. A lot of men can't relate to women on a platonic level, and that doesn't mean they're misogynists.
      - yosito 8y ago
        I think it's problematic, if you're interested in having equality in tech, that men can't relate platonically to women. So if there are a lot of men who can't relate to women, why do you think that is?
- meowface 8y ago
  Or we shouldn't be blaming either men or women and instead should work towards more open communication and solidarity regarding these issues.
  - yosito 8y ago
    You're right.
- thucydidesofusa 8y ago
  No. We should discuss the norms of software jobs and the extent to which industries should accommodate people who don't fit the norms of the industry. I'd like to work as a counselor or social worker but my belief on human nature is that humanity is fundamentally evil although self-interest and dominion can motivate people to care and be effective. But there's a systemic bias in that industry against people like me. How do you think we should resolve disputes groups that are currently doing a job verses groups who purport to be interested in doing the job?
- Zarath 8y ago
  This is so ridiculous. Obviously there are some boundaries that are unreasonable. What if I don't like when anyone of the opposite sex sits within 50 meters of me? Should everyone cater to my boundaries, or am I just being ridiculous?
- manicdee 8y ago
  Who is apportioning blame? Young conflict-averse man starts life being a little socially inept. Tries breaking the ice with unreceptive women, typical human psychology sets in and this behaviour is generalised to all women. Now socially inept man continues through life with underdeveloped social skills while the people he wants to interact with are developing more complex social skills. Who is to blame? Nobody in this scenario, Consider looking to why the man is conflict averse in the first place.

Which is why men who aren’t able to read those boundaries prefer to simply avoid getting anywhere near those boundaries. The easiest way of not transgressing is to avoid contact altogether.

yosito 8y ago

Reasonable enough, but if that's the case, we should be blaming the avoidance on men for their social incompetence, not on women for having boundaries.

ravenstine 8y ago
What exactly does a man get for going out of his way like you suggest? Most of the time, nothing. Unless I can read that a woman is receptive to friendship, trying to befriend women because they're women is time better spent on working. It's a two-way street, and while I have had my share of female friends, the majority of women are either not receptive(i.e. won't give men the benefit of the doubt) or content to wait for men to take the initiative.
- yosito 8y ago
  A man is not entitled to get anything. And if he's trying to get something, that seems like a pretty good reason for a woman to not be receptive to him. How many times have you walked past a homeless person trying to be "friendly" because you knew their motivation was to get something from you? I'm a man, nerdy, below average attractiveness, but a majority of my friends are women because I don't approach them trying to get something, and I've found that a majority of women are extremely receptive to being friends.
  - ravenstine 8y ago
    Of course they're not entitled to get anything, but a reasonable person doesn't continue performing the same action when it benefits them in no way. There's nothing irrational about a man not going out of his way to befriend women in the workplace because he's had bad luck doing it, or because of the risks he's not going to have befriending other men. If you have a lot of women as friends, that's great. Your experience is not the experience of a lot of men. A lot of men can't relate to women on a platonic level, and that doesn't mean they're misogynists.
    - yosito 8y ago
      I think it's problematic, if you're interested in having equality in tech, that men can't relate platonically to women. So if there are a lot of men who can't relate to women, why do you think that is?
meowface 8y ago
Or we shouldn't be blaming either men or women and instead should work towards more open communication and solidarity regarding these issues.
- yosito 8y ago
  You're right.
thucydidesofusa 8y ago
No. We should discuss the norms of software jobs and the extent to which industries should accommodate people who don't fit the norms of the industry. I'd like to work as a counselor or social worker but my belief on human nature is that humanity is fundamentally evil although self-interest and dominion can motivate people to care and be effective. But there's a systemic bias in that industry against people like me. How do you think we should resolve disputes groups that are currently doing a job verses groups who purport to be interested in doing the job?
Zarath 8y ago
This is so ridiculous. Obviously there are some boundaries that are unreasonable. What if I don't like when anyone of the opposite sex sits within 50 meters of me? Should everyone cater to my boundaries, or am I just being ridiculous?
manicdee 8y ago
Who is apportioning blame? Young conflict-averse man starts life being a little socially inept. Tries breaking the ice with unreceptive women, typical human psychology sets in and this behaviour is generalised to all women. Now socially inept man continues through life with underdeveloped social skills while the people he wants to interact with are developing more complex social skills. Who is to blame? Nobody in this scenario, Consider looking to why the man is conflict averse in the first place.