5 ms·

The way I see it: 1. Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basi

The way I see it: 1. Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. If you can't not go there, then you have other problems to deal with first, and the sooner you go about that the better! 2. If making friends isn't crossing a line, it's therefore not sticking your neck out at all. 3. There is no more liability than any other workplace friendship, and just as much potential for gain as any other workplace friendship. Plus, if you are socially awkward as you claim, you know darn well that the potential for gain is ginormous. If it's hard for you to make friends, you need all the good friends you can get! 4. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with nursing, but it's silly to hide behind that as an excuse. You need to get on with your life. 5. The less you put women on some weird fetishized platform of unobtanium, and the more you just treat them as fellow humans and geeks, the less likely you are to cross a line. At least, that's my conviction, and it seems to work pretty well.

stcredzero 8y ago
Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. As it stands now, this line is very easily "shifted" by spin and outright lying.
- phlakaton 8y ago
  And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? What data do you have to back this up? Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? Sheesh. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. Yet reactions like this this are unbelievably unfair to women too. It's almost like it's _women_ who are in a lose-lose situation here, not men! What on earth will it take to get men to simply treat women as reasonable, decent people?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? From what I have seen, it happens fairly often. Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? What!? Strawman much? Put words into another's mouth much? Sheesh! Let me tell you this. I was pretty much a butthead (lowercase b) in my 20's. The older I get, the stupider 20-somethings seem, and the wiser my parents seem. Heck, I was still plenty stupid in my 30's. Younger people have a lot of good things going for them, but there are going to be overreactions and, let's say, "deficits in experience." This is entirely an equal opportunity phenomenon, too, across genders, races, orientations, religions, heights, etc. So no, no probably one gets cast out. Human beings need checks and balances, and groups of humans working together sometimes need the check and balance of experience and another's point of view. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. At a fundamental level, this isn't about men vs. women. It's about transparency, fairness, and due process. I know firsthand about how really, truly awful stuff can happen under the surface of things. I know because those things were done to me. Both in the fashion of racial bashing and sexual abuse. I could probably talk for hours about the things done to me by white males. Still you can't abandon principles just because something was so very bad. Those principles are what separates good people from the brutal vengeance of purely tribal thinking. You can't have true justice without those principles, because power corrupts and human nature will pollute what happens. "An eye for an eye, making the whole world blind." "Listen and believe," is okay as a first step, but taken as a substitute for due process, or as an excuse to throw it away, it's morally bankrupt and it denies human nature. There are reasons why we have things like courts and the 5th amendment. It's very, very easy for people to fall into groupthink and for lives to be ruined for absolutely no reason. This is something which is cognitively difficult to understand, but which is a hard won lesson of our society. It's also something which I've seen firsthand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYB2Coufg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYB2Coufg Women are human beings too. And human beings have the capacity to and sometimes lie. They have lapses in judgement. They get corrupted by power. They sometimes lack the experience or haven't processed their experiences. If "listen and believe" is the full extent of how you would treat with women, well, that's about the most dehumanizing and belittling thing toward women I've heard someone suggest today.
bmarquez 8y ago
You seem to be misinterpreting my comment: a) My comment about nursing meant that the workplace barriers within opposite-gender mentoring exist on both sides of the spectrum...not acting as an excuse. Your reaction is just like telling the author to "get on with [her] life." b) Who said anything about "weird fetishized platform of unobtanium"? I was just pointing out the legal realities that exist within the workplace. c) The line is not in "workplace romance and sexual power politics land", the line is the HR department. Who may share your sense of humor and attitude. Or not.
- phlakaton 8y ago
  What I'm trying to tell you is, and I believe the legal and HR "reality" back me up on this, that the vast majority of friendships struck up in the workplace do not lead to legal or HR headaches. Certainly this has been my experience, and nothing has changed in the past few years to make me change my mind. The people who should be afraid, and I'm glad if they now are, are the people who do regularly get up to, or cross, the line into inappropriate behavior. I say you are letting your fear of sensationalized stories, and/or general fear of the Other, lead you astray.
manicdee 8y ago
Sexual power politics land starts in the grey line between saying hello in the morning and giving someone unwanted attention.
- phlakaton 8y ago
  There is a massive, massive gulf between the two. Unless there's something weird about how you say it?
  - manicdee 8y ago
    Or you remind them of some who has assaulted them in the past (by looks, posture, attitude, language, etc). I have a hard time simply coping with people being behind me, much less attempting to interact with me without first entering my forward field of view.
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      That took me three times reading it to get right. To avoid anyone else misunderstanding: That's "remind by looks, posture, etc", rather than "assaulted by looks, posture, etc".

stcredzero 8y ago

Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. As it stands now, this line is very easily "shifted" by spin and outright lying.

phlakaton 8y ago
And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? What data do you have to back this up? Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? Sheesh. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. Yet reactions like this this are unbelievably unfair to women too. It's almost like it's _women_ who are in a lose-lose situation here, not men! What on earth will it take to get men to simply treat women as reasonable, decent people?
- stcredzero 8y ago
  And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? From what I have seen, it happens fairly often. Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? What!? Strawman much? Put words into another's mouth much? Sheesh! Let me tell you this. I was pretty much a butthead (lowercase b) in my 20's. The older I get, the stupider 20-somethings seem, and the wiser my parents seem. Heck, I was still plenty stupid in my 30's. Younger people have a lot of good things going for them, but there are going to be overreactions and, let's say, "deficits in experience." This is entirely an equal opportunity phenomenon, too, across genders, races, orientations, religions, heights, etc. So no, no probably one gets cast out. Human beings need checks and balances, and groups of humans working together sometimes need the check and balance of experience and another's point of view. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. At a fundamental level, this isn't about men vs. women. It's about transparency, fairness, and due process. I know firsthand about how really, truly awful stuff can happen under the surface of things. I know because those things were done to me. Both in the fashion of racial bashing and sexual abuse. I could probably talk for hours about the things done to me by white males. Still you can't abandon principles just because something was so very bad. Those principles are what separates good people from the brutal vengeance of purely tribal thinking. You can't have true justice without those principles, because power corrupts and human nature will pollute what happens. "An eye for an eye, making the whole world blind." "Listen and believe," is okay as a first step, but taken as a substitute for due process, or as an excuse to throw it away, it's morally bankrupt and it denies human nature. There are reasons why we have things like courts and the 5th amendment. It's very, very easy for people to fall into groupthink and for lives to be ruined for absolutely no reason. This is something which is cognitively difficult to understand, but which is a hard won lesson of our society. It's also something which I've seen firsthand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYB2Coufg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYB2Coufg Women are human beings too. And human beings have the capacity to and sometimes lie. They have lapses in judgement. They get corrupted by power. They sometimes lack the experience or haven't processed their experiences. If "listen and believe" is the full extent of how you would treat with women, well, that's about the most dehumanizing and belittling thing toward women I've heard someone suggest today.

bmarquez 8y ago

You seem to be misinterpreting my comment: a) My comment about nursing meant that the workplace barriers within opposite-gender mentoring exist on both sides of the spectrum...not acting as an excuse. Your reaction is just like telling the author to "get on with [her] life." b) Who said anything about "weird fetishized platform of unobtanium"? I was just pointing out the legal realities that exist within the workplace. c) The line is not in "workplace romance and sexual power politics land", the line is the HR department. Who may share your sense of humor and attitude. Or not.

phlakaton 8y ago
What I'm trying to tell you is, and I believe the legal and HR "reality" back me up on this, that the vast majority of friendships struck up in the workplace do not lead to legal or HR headaches. Certainly this has been my experience, and nothing has changed in the past few years to make me change my mind. The people who should be afraid, and I'm glad if they now are, are the people who do regularly get up to, or cross, the line into inappropriate behavior. I say you are letting your fear of sensationalized stories, and/or general fear of the Other, lead you astray.

manicdee 8y ago

Sexual power politics land starts in the grey line between saying hello in the morning and giving someone unwanted attention.

phlakaton 8y ago
There is a massive, massive gulf between the two. Unless there's something weird about how you say it?
- manicdee 8y ago
  Or you remind them of some who has assaulted them in the past (by looks, posture, attitude, language, etc). I have a hard time simply coping with people being behind me, much less attempting to interact with me without first entering my forward field of view.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    That took me three times reading it to get right. To avoid anyone else misunderstanding: That's "remind by looks, posture, etc", rather than "assaulted by looks, posture, etc".