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> men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate Yeah I am wondering why someone would stick their ne

> men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate Yeah I am wondering why someone would stick their neck out, especially if they have below-average social skills. Lots of personal liability for little personal gain, and #MeToo just publicized the existing uneasiness with professional interactions. It's not like any women helped when I was evaluating a career in nursing.

sp332 8y ago
Because social skills can be practiced and learned. #MeToo is about physical abuse and abuse of power, not some peer who has a hard time making eye contact.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  There's a large grey area. There are also false accusations.
- bmarquez 8y ago
  I agree that social skills can be practiced and learned. But I think something like Toastmasters, improv classes, or Meetup groups are a much safer way, instead of the corporate environment.
- thucydidesofusa 8y ago
  Not yet. But there's clearly some trend towards making smaller and smaller transgressions into #metoo issues. I'd hate to find out that I rolled the dice on ostracism (or worse) just to be friendly to someone who doesn't care enough to reach out to me. In fact, it's much riskier for me to reach out to them than for them to reach out to me. If they're too stupid to realize that, I'm not interested in being their friend. And if they're perceptive of my risk and they still expect me to submit myself to it for their convenience or whatever then I'm not interested in being their friend.
- Jackalopiate 8y ago
  What about the incel hate that feminists are throwing around nowadays? There have been 2-3 instances of self proclaimed incel men lashing out because they can't get laid, and they have been branded as psychopathic women-haters by the far-left. The #MeToo movement was a farce anyway, and led to a lot of false accusations that some men have to deal with forever now.
  - thau98thh 8y ago
    > There have been 2-3 instances of self proclaimed incel men lashing out because they can't get laid, and they have been branded as psychopathic women-haters by the far-left. How should men who go on a literal killing spree because they believe they are owed sex be classified? That sounds like pretty psychopathic behavior (or would it be sociopathic? I get those confused).
  - manicdee 8y ago
    Describing mass murder as “lashing out” is a bit ridiculous don’t you think?
commandlinefan 8y ago
Many years ago (almost 20, I think), I was working as a contractor on a remote contract in a foreign country with one other person from my company, who also happened to be a woman. Since we were the only Americans there, and were staying at the same hotel, we naturally ended up having lunch and dinner together, and talked quite a bit. She was married, and I knew that. She commented once that she was spending more time with me than she normally spent with her husband and I laughed and said, "yep, next thing you know I'll be at your house for thanksgiving dinner this year". She laughed, I didn't think much of it. Well, quite a while later, we had sort of a "falling out": she had sounds turned on on her computer (remember when you could configure windows to play a sound every time you deleted a file or got an e-mail?) I asked her to please mute those sounds because it was really distracting. She refused, and I asked to have my desk moved so I wasn't right next to her, which irritated her, since she relied on me for quite a bit of technical assistance and now she had to walk across the floor to talk to me. We argued about this for a while, but then the contract ended and we were back in the states. Next thing I know, I get a call from my boss that she's filed a formal sexual harassment claim against me, based on my comment that I was "going to show up at her house for thanksgiving dinner". As you can probably imagine, I've been very cautious about my interactions with female coworkers ever since.
- Draiken 8y ago
  This is such a big problem that is almost always thrown under the rug with an "exception" label. Yes it's an exception but it's a possible life/career wrecking exception. If you look at it objectively, this entire scenario is only possible with a man to woman interaction. If the woman had said the exact same thing to a man, he could never file a sexual harassment complaint against her. In fact he'd probably be laughed at if he tried. The same situation would happen if both were men. Logically speaking, why take the risk? I don't know how we tackle this though.
  - commandlinefan 8y ago
    Yeah, I get the impression that it's rare, but... it's just not a risk I can afford take.
- 8y ago
phlakaton 8y ago
The way I see it: 1. Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. If you can't not go there, then you have other problems to deal with first, and the sooner you go about that the better! 2. If making friends isn't crossing a line, it's therefore not sticking your neck out at all. 3. There is no more liability than any other workplace friendship, and just as much potential for gain as any other workplace friendship. Plus, if you are socially awkward as you claim, you know darn well that the potential for gain is ginormous. If it's hard for you to make friends, you need all the good friends you can get! 4. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with nursing, but it's silly to hide behind that as an excuse. You need to get on with your life. 5. The less you put women on some weird fetishized platform of unobtanium, and the more you just treat them as fellow humans and geeks, the less likely you are to cross a line. At least, that's my conviction, and it seems to work pretty well.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. As it stands now, this line is very easily "shifted" by spin and outright lying.
  - phlakaton 8y ago
    And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? What data do you have to back this up? Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? Sheesh. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. Yet reactions like this this are unbelievably unfair to women too. It's almost like it's _women_ who are in a lose-lose situation here, not men! What on earth will it take to get men to simply treat women as reasonable, decent people?
    - 8y ago

sp332 8y ago

Because social skills can be practiced and learned. #MeToo is about physical abuse and abuse of power, not some peer who has a hard time making eye contact.

skookumchuck 8y ago
There's a large grey area. There are also false accusations.
bmarquez 8y ago
I agree that social skills can be practiced and learned. But I think something like Toastmasters, improv classes, or Meetup groups are a much safer way, instead of the corporate environment.
thucydidesofusa 8y ago
Not yet. But there's clearly some trend towards making smaller and smaller transgressions into #metoo issues. I'd hate to find out that I rolled the dice on ostracism (or worse) just to be friendly to someone who doesn't care enough to reach out to me. In fact, it's much riskier for me to reach out to them than for them to reach out to me. If they're too stupid to realize that, I'm not interested in being their friend. And if they're perceptive of my risk and they still expect me to submit myself to it for their convenience or whatever then I'm not interested in being their friend.
Jackalopiate 8y ago
What about the incel hate that feminists are throwing around nowadays? There have been 2-3 instances of self proclaimed incel men lashing out because they can't get laid, and they have been branded as psychopathic women-haters by the far-left. The #MeToo movement was a farce anyway, and led to a lot of false accusations that some men have to deal with forever now.
- thau98thh 8y ago
  > There have been 2-3 instances of self proclaimed incel men lashing out because they can't get laid, and they have been branded as psychopathic women-haters by the far-left. How should men who go on a literal killing spree because they believe they are owed sex be classified? That sounds like pretty psychopathic behavior (or would it be sociopathic? I get those confused).
- manicdee 8y ago
  Describing mass murder as “lashing out” is a bit ridiculous don’t you think?

commandlinefan 8y ago

Many years ago (almost 20, I think), I was working as a contractor on a remote contract in a foreign country with one other person from my company, who also happened to be a woman. Since we were the only Americans there, and were staying at the same hotel, we naturally ended up having lunch and dinner together, and talked quite a bit. She was married, and I knew that. She commented once that she was spending more time with me than she normally spent with her husband and I laughed and said, "yep, next thing you know I'll be at your house for thanksgiving dinner this year". She laughed, I didn't think much of it. Well, quite a while later, we had sort of a "falling out": she had sounds turned on on her computer (remember when you could configure windows to play a sound every time you deleted a file or got an e-mail?) I asked her to please mute those sounds because it was really distracting. She refused, and I asked to have my desk moved so I wasn't right next to her, which irritated her, since she relied on me for quite a bit of technical assistance and now she had to walk across the floor to talk to me. We argued about this for a while, but then the contract ended and we were back in the states. Next thing I know, I get a call from my boss that she's filed a formal sexual harassment claim against me, based on my comment that I was "going to show up at her house for thanksgiving dinner". As you can probably imagine, I've been very cautious about my interactions with female coworkers ever since.

Draiken 8y ago
This is such a big problem that is almost always thrown under the rug with an "exception" label. Yes it's an exception but it's a possible life/career wrecking exception. If you look at it objectively, this entire scenario is only possible with a man to woman interaction. If the woman had said the exact same thing to a man, he could never file a sexual harassment complaint against her. In fact he'd probably be laughed at if he tried. The same situation would happen if both were men. Logically speaking, why take the risk? I don't know how we tackle this though.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  Yeah, I get the impression that it's rare, but... it's just not a risk I can afford take.
8y ago

phlakaton 8y ago

The way I see it: 1. Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. If you can't not go there, then you have other problems to deal with first, and the sooner you go about that the better! 2. If making friends isn't crossing a line, it's therefore not sticking your neck out at all. 3. There is no more liability than any other workplace friendship, and just as much potential for gain as any other workplace friendship. Plus, if you are socially awkward as you claim, you know darn well that the potential for gain is ginormous. If it's hard for you to make friends, you need all the good friends you can get! 4. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with nursing, but it's silly to hide behind that as an excuse. You need to get on with your life. 5. The less you put women on some weird fetishized platform of unobtanium, and the more you just treat them as fellow humans and geeks, the less likely you are to cross a line. At least, that's my conviction, and it seems to work pretty well.

stcredzero 8y ago
Making friends isn't even remotely close to a line. The line is way out in workplace romance and sexual power politics land. The very basic mitigation strategy you have is simply not to go there. As it stands now, this line is very easily "shifted" by spin and outright lying.
- phlakaton 8y ago
  And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? What data do you have to back this up? Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? Sheesh. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awful stuff. Yet reactions like this this are unbelievably unfair to women too. It's almost like it's _women_ who are in a lose-lose situation here, not men! What on earth will it take to get men to simply treat women as reasonable, decent people?
  - 8y ago