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Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in t

by yosito 9y ago

Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in tech is because men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives.

as1mov 9y ago
I've been browsing this thread for about 45 minutes. Not a single comment is rude, most of the comments are trying to debate about the issue. If you post a submission on a forum and expect everyone to blindly agree with you or you else you consider it as "hate", then the problem is perhaps with you.
- yosito 9y ago
  You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. Not sure where you got the word "hate" from. I'm not saying anything about hate.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. I've missed them. Can you aggregate links? I honestly find this interesting. (You can "cheat" this using the reply links.)
    - yosito 9y ago
      CMD+F unatt I'm not gonna do your work for you.
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        I see. You, "won't do labor." Most of the time I see the phrase, it's not from good people. It's not like you can CMD-F a sentiment. So, I just tried it, and I found exactly one match for "unatt" that fit the sentiment discussed from the 1st person. I only found one person who said he, personally, couldn't be friendly to women because he is unattractive. The rest are talking about people in general, and aren't necessarily attached to the ability to be friendly. From what I saw, the issue of being friendly with women is more attached to the problems of risk, and this risk is correlated with relative attractiveness.
      - meowface 9y ago
        Most of these commenters don't appear to be whining about their situation, but rather replying to the question of why men in tech positions don't try to befriend more women. Their answer is that they're concerned about the optics of trying to initiate the friendship. And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc. It can be the way they carry themselves, their posture, the way they walk, the sound of their voice, stuttering, lack of vocal control... For someone like that with poor social skills and a lot of anxiety, it's not at all uncommon for a woman to misconstrue their efforts at friendship as a romantic overture or worse. It can also just be shyness due to inexperience interacting with women. This is not necessarily the fault of the women; they likely do receive a lot of uncomfortable romantic overtures from socially awkward people like this. The commenters aren't placing blame on anyone, but describing the reality of their situation. Some of the commenters have a rather rude and selfish attitude about it, but this is a genuine issue for a lot of men and explains part of the reason why some women in CS may feel isolated. If anything, I think people should try to have more empathy for this particular predicament, so that men and women can hopefully become more comfortable fostering professional and platonic relationships in the workplace.
        stcredzero 9y ago
        And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc Young men and women in their 20's usually don't have a very good self awareness of their own inherent attractiveness. There's that which Iain M. Banks termed, "the elegance of the newly matured." By that, I mean something which is natural, and of the natural world and natural beauty. That cat over there might have a slightly squished face and a weird toe, but hell, it's still a cat. You don't have to have much in common with women/men. Dress neatly and be well groomed. Genuinely have fun with something and genuinely be yourself. Do socialize, but don't limit yourself by thinking that bros or sociopaths need to rule your life. Do try dancing and see if you genuinely have fun with that. If you do, then know that it's very potent, but you have to be in the moment to let the real magic happen. Actually, that last part applies to everything else as well. Most 20-somethings, males and females, are too mired in their preconceptions and their contention in the social hierarchy competition to have a full appreciation of their own natural beauty. (And often, each other's.)
  - arkis22 9y ago
    Are you saying that the men here aren't being empathetic because they feel like when they talk to women they get called creepy and therefore don't want to? Please, be specific. Otherwise it just sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
    - yosito 9y ago
      Specifically, dismissive comments full of excuses like "I'm unattractive and women aren't nice to me" are lacking empathy.
      - arkis22 9y ago
        It is not dismissive if it's true.
        yosito 9y ago
        That's not how that works. ^ This comment is me being dismissive of you, and it's also true.
        arkis22 9y ago
        You have the right to be dismissive, but you don't have the right of proving me wrong without arguing against my point with a coherent argument. You are basically saying that women have never treated men differently based on their attractiveness, which is absurd.
        yosito 9y ago
        > you don't have the right of proving me wrong without arguing against my point Did you have a point? I missed it. The closest thing I've seen to you making a point in this thread was when you said "the problem is perhaps with you". > You are basically saying that women have never treated men differently based on their attractiveness That's not what I'm saying. But I'm tired of repeating myself, so please re-read my previous comments.
- turingcompeteme 9y ago
  They didn't say rude, they mentioned empathy. Julia Enthoven shared her experience as a Woman in tech, and this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc. There is no empathy here. So I'll start: Good for her for sharing her thoughts and experiences. It's a tough topic to talk about, and as we see here and elsewhere, people will immediately pick apart everything you say. Individual experiences like these are useful to read about for people like me who recognize that there is a problem but don't really know what to do about it. So thank you, Julia. I'm sorry it is such a difficult topic, but I hope you keep talking about this and that others are encouraged to do so as well.
  - daenz 9y ago
    Another way to look at the comments is to look at the audience. HackerNews readers are typically hard problem solvers. They discuss theories and solutions, and can't be afraid of avoiding potential causes because they make people uncomfortable. So while your post has empathy, it doesn't really push the solution-finding process forward in the way that other, more active (vs passive), posts do.
    - yosito 9y ago
      You can't be sure you're offering a solution to the right problem if you haven't taken the time to empathize with what the problem is first.
      - daenz 9y ago
        And passive empathy without action is pointless. How much data needs to be gathered before an action becomes clear? Should we all not take any action until then?
        yosito 9y ago
        I haven't seen any actions recommended. Just people nitpicking everything they think is wrong with a woman's opinion.
troupe 9y ago
> men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives. The comments I've seen are on par with comments on other posts where the author was male. The fact that someone disagrees with the cause of some statistical result is not the same as not listening.
- yosito 9y ago
  I'm not talking about the comments that disagree with the hypothesis in the article. I disagree with it too. There's no statistical result being discussed in the article, but people are dismissing the author's opinion (saying things like she must be an outlier) and getting defensive about men's behavior (saying they have their reasons for how they act, like being unattractive).
  - indoorfish 9y ago
    I would appreciate a bulleted list as to why my 5,5 mixed race frame is somehow unequal in engaging my coworker as another's 6,3 white mans. If it could completely explain how my careful quests for affection were dismissed, regarded as unwanted then maybe I would have more sympathy with direct, out of hand dismissals.
cwperkins 9y ago
Seems to me like a lot of people in this comment section read the article before responding? One of the things I like about HN is that the commenters more respond to the content of the article rather than the headline.
- yosito 9y ago
  They read the article and then promptly dismissed it as a woman who doesn't know what she's talking about. I don't agree with the article, but I think we're too quick to dismiss the author's perspective and get defensive.
forapurpose 9y ago
> Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. To carry your point a couple steps further, HN demonstrates the huge gender disparity in tech. Are there any women in this discussion? Even the parent assumes the reader is male, with good reason. Most of the discussion is complaints about how hard it is for the commenter because of #metoo and other actions against sexual harassment and discrimination, and then other people agreeing. Imagine how different it would be if half the commenters were women. Those voices are not only missing from HN, but probably from your workplace and classroom as well.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  So far one person has self identified as female, and 2 or 3 commenters have provided anecdotes from their female SO.
wieghant 9y ago
HackerNews isn't really a place to wave a empathy stick at. This is a place where years of work on startups and concepts come to die. If you came to find yes men, this is sadly the wrong place. Having said that, there are an unusual lot of people empathizing and acknowledging the issue that women are more alienated and that we should fix that. There is a severe lack of empathy on the other side though that cannot seem to fathom why men heed cautionary tales and choose not to risk their career over fighting for equity.
gnulinux 9y ago
But also maybe think from the perspective of men when all throughout your life all your attempts to socialize with women were quickly labelled as "creepy" and it's very easy and comforting to ignore socializing with them. I would never discriminate against a women coworker, I do perfectly fine communicating with my female coworkers professionally, and I cannot see anything ethically wrong with what I'm doing. But it's simply too hard to properly socialize with women. I don't get mad at people when they don't learn something I find fascinating like automated theorem proving, and it drives me crazy when my friends get mad at me for not learning how to socialize with women. It really is not the end of the world.
dang 9y ago
It's a problem for HN if the threads fill up with disgruntled comments, but it doesn't say much about the world at large, because of sample bias. People are more motivated to comment if they feel strongly about something, especially strongly negatively. Here that means they've self-selected for the quality you're talking about. Fortunately we're also getting comments from men who enjoy talking to women at work (shock!) and don't have an ideology about it. Those comments take longer to appear because they only emerge as a reaction to the first kind of comment. Why would you bother to post such a thing unless some other comment denied it?
Zarath 9y ago
Why doesn't she try empathizing with men before basically telling us that it's our problem and that we need to change? If women are so much more "pro-social" than men, maybe they need to use their skills to fix the problem, instead of "anti-social" men going and trying to fix the problem.

by yosito 9y ago

as1mov 9y ago

I've been browsing this thread for about 45 minutes. Not a single comment is rude, most of the comments are trying to debate about the issue. If you post a submission on a forum and expect everyone to blindly agree with you or you else you consider it as "hate", then the problem is perhaps with you.

yosito 9y ago
You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. Not sure where you got the word "hate" from. I'm not saying anything about hate.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. I've missed them. Can you aggregate links? I honestly find this interesting. (You can "cheat" this using the reply links.)
  - yosito 9y ago
    CMD+F unatt I'm not gonna do your work for you.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I see. You, "won't do labor." Most of the time I see the phrase, it's not from good people. It's not like you can CMD-F a sentiment. So, I just tried it, and I found exactly one match for "unatt" that fit the sentiment discussed from the 1st person. I only found one person who said he, personally, couldn't be friendly to women because he is unattractive. The rest are talking about people in general, and aren't necessarily attached to the ability to be friendly. From what I saw, the issue of being friendly with women is more attached to the problems of risk, and this risk is correlated with relative attractiveness.
    - meowface 9y ago
      Most of these commenters don't appear to be whining about their situation, but rather replying to the question of why men in tech positions don't try to befriend more women. Their answer is that they're concerned about the optics of trying to initiate the friendship. And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc. It can be the way they carry themselves, their posture, the way they walk, the sound of their voice, stuttering, lack of vocal control... For someone like that with poor social skills and a lot of anxiety, it's not at all uncommon for a woman to misconstrue their efforts at friendship as a romantic overture or worse. It can also just be shyness due to inexperience interacting with women. This is not necessarily the fault of the women; they likely do receive a lot of uncomfortable romantic overtures from socially awkward people like this. The commenters aren't placing blame on anyone, but describing the reality of their situation. Some of the commenters have a rather rude and selfish attitude about it, but this is a genuine issue for a lot of men and explains part of the reason why some women in CS may feel isolated. If anything, I think people should try to have more empathy for this particular predicament, so that men and women can hopefully become more comfortable fostering professional and platonic relationships in the workplace.
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc Young men and women in their 20's usually don't have a very good self awareness of their own inherent attractiveness. There's that which Iain M. Banks termed, "the elegance of the newly matured." By that, I mean something which is natural, and of the natural world and natural beauty. That cat over there might have a slightly squished face and a weird toe, but hell, it's still a cat. You don't have to have much in common with women/men. Dress neatly and be well groomed. Genuinely have fun with something and genuinely be yourself. Do socialize, but don't limit yourself by thinking that bros or sociopaths need to rule your life. Do try dancing and see if you genuinely have fun with that. If you do, then know that it's very potent, but you have to be in the moment to let the real magic happen. Actually, that last part applies to everything else as well. Most 20-somethings, males and females, are too mired in their preconceptions and their contention in the social hierarchy competition to have a full appreciation of their own natural beauty. (And often, each other's.)
- arkis22 9y ago
  Are you saying that the men here aren't being empathetic because they feel like when they talk to women they get called creepy and therefore don't want to? Please, be specific. Otherwise it just sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
  - yosito 9y ago
    Specifically, dismissive comments full of excuses like "I'm unattractive and women aren't nice to me" are lacking empathy.
    - arkis22 9y ago
      It is not dismissive if it's true.
      - yosito 9y ago
        That's not how that works. ^ This comment is me being dismissive of you, and it's also true.
        arkis22 9y ago
        You have the right to be dismissive, but you don't have the right of proving me wrong without arguing against my point with a coherent argument. You are basically saying that women have never treated men differently based on their attractiveness, which is absurd.
        yosito 9y ago
        > you don't have the right of proving me wrong without arguing against my point Did you have a point? I missed it. The closest thing I've seen to you making a point in this thread was when you said "the problem is perhaps with you". > You are basically saying that women have never treated men differently based on their attractiveness That's not what I'm saying. But I'm tired of repeating myself, so please re-read my previous comments.
turingcompeteme 9y ago
They didn't say rude, they mentioned empathy. Julia Enthoven shared her experience as a Woman in tech, and this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc. There is no empathy here. So I'll start: Good for her for sharing her thoughts and experiences. It's a tough topic to talk about, and as we see here and elsewhere, people will immediately pick apart everything you say. Individual experiences like these are useful to read about for people like me who recognize that there is a problem but don't really know what to do about it. So thank you, Julia. I'm sorry it is such a difficult topic, but I hope you keep talking about this and that others are encouraged to do so as well.
- daenz 9y ago
  Another way to look at the comments is to look at the audience. HackerNews readers are typically hard problem solvers. They discuss theories and solutions, and can't be afraid of avoiding potential causes because they make people uncomfortable. So while your post has empathy, it doesn't really push the solution-finding process forward in the way that other, more active (vs passive), posts do.
  - yosito 9y ago
    You can't be sure you're offering a solution to the right problem if you haven't taken the time to empathize with what the problem is first.
    - daenz 9y ago
      And passive empathy without action is pointless. How much data needs to be gathered before an action becomes clear? Should we all not take any action until then?
      - yosito 9y ago
        I haven't seen any actions recommended. Just people nitpicking everything they think is wrong with a woman's opinion.

troupe 9y ago

> men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives. The comments I've seen are on par with comments on other posts where the author was male. The fact that someone disagrees with the cause of some statistical result is not the same as not listening.

yosito 9y ago
I'm not talking about the comments that disagree with the hypothesis in the article. I disagree with it too. There's no statistical result being discussed in the article, but people are dismissing the author's opinion (saying things like she must be an outlier) and getting defensive about men's behavior (saying they have their reasons for how they act, like being unattractive).
- indoorfish 9y ago
  I would appreciate a bulleted list as to why my 5,5 mixed race frame is somehow unequal in engaging my coworker as another's 6,3 white mans. If it could completely explain how my careful quests for affection were dismissed, regarded as unwanted then maybe I would have more sympathy with direct, out of hand dismissals.

cwperkins 9y ago

Seems to me like a lot of people in this comment section read the article before responding? One of the things I like about HN is that the commenters more respond to the content of the article rather than the headline.

yosito 9y ago
They read the article and then promptly dismissed it as a woman who doesn't know what she's talking about. I don't agree with the article, but I think we're too quick to dismiss the author's perspective and get defensive.

forapurpose 9y ago

> Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. To carry your point a couple steps further, HN demonstrates the huge gender disparity in tech. Are there any women in this discussion? Even the parent assumes the reader is male, with good reason. Most of the discussion is complaints about how hard it is for the commenter because of #metoo and other actions against sexual harassment and discrimination, and then other people agreeing. Imagine how different it would be if half the commenters were women. Those voices are not only missing from HN, but probably from your workplace and classroom as well.

hkmurakami 9y ago
So far one person has self identified as female, and 2 or 3 commenters have provided anecdotes from their female SO.

wieghant 9y ago

HackerNews isn't really a place to wave a empathy stick at. This is a place where years of work on startups and concepts come to die. If you came to find yes men, this is sadly the wrong place. Having said that, there are an unusual lot of people empathizing and acknowledging the issue that women are more alienated and that we should fix that. There is a severe lack of empathy on the other side though that cannot seem to fathom why men heed cautionary tales and choose not to risk their career over fighting for equity.

gnulinux 9y ago

But also maybe think from the perspective of men when all throughout your life all your attempts to socialize with women were quickly labelled as "creepy" and it's very easy and comforting to ignore socializing with them. I would never discriminate against a women coworker, I do perfectly fine communicating with my female coworkers professionally, and I cannot see anything ethically wrong with what I'm doing. But it's simply too hard to properly socialize with women. I don't get mad at people when they don't learn something I find fascinating like automated theorem proving, and it drives me crazy when my friends get mad at me for not learning how to socialize with women. It really is not the end of the world.

dang 9y ago

It's a problem for HN if the threads fill up with disgruntled comments, but it doesn't say much about the world at large, because of sample bias. People are more motivated to comment if they feel strongly about something, especially strongly negatively. Here that means they've self-selected for the quality you're talking about. Fortunately we're also getting comments from men who enjoy talking to women at work (shock!) and don't have an ideology about it. Those comments take longer to appear because they only emerge as a reaction to the first kind of comment. Why would you bother to post such a thing unless some other comment denied it?

Zarath 9y ago

Why doesn't she try empathizing with men before basically telling us that it's our problem and that we need to change? If women are so much more "pro-social" than men, maybe they need to use their skills to fix the problem, instead of "anti-social" men going and trying to fix the problem.