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Many years ago, I read a blog, possibly linked from here, that gave this definition of a true hobby that I really like. A true hobby is something that you don'

Many years ago, I read a blog, possibly linked from here, that gave this definition of a true hobby that I really like. A true hobby is something that you don't do for money and that has no deadlines attached. Once you start accepting payment to do something, someone else is setting expectations for your work. If you are a pretty good hobbyist photographer, one of the worst things you can do is shoot a wedding. Shooting a wedding, even for professional photographers, is one of the highest stress environments possible for photography. If you have deadlines associated with your hobby, what happens if they "slip"? For example, if you set an artificial deadline to make your first ambitious Arduino project that will do something that will make your friends impressed and you get stuck somewhere, does it really matter? Nothing needs to be said about the combination of paid work and deadlines. That is not hobbying, that is contracting. A long time ago, I did some subcontracting on iOS development. Beautiful weekend? Didn't matter. Monday deadline for client. Sucked.

keerthiko 8y ago
I think making money and doing a hobby need not be independent. Being able to earn money doing something you enjoy makes the activity more sustainable and provides resources you can pour back into the hobby to take it to new heights. Additionally I think maintaining ownership and flexibility of schedule is good to a certain point, but having deadlines and external stakeholders (which you preferably choose and control) also helps for motivation. It's always more rewarding when you meet those than question your commitment to your hobby when you forget about it for a few months because "you were busy".
FooHentai 8y ago
It gets weird for stuff like cosplay. Hard deadlines, still a hobby.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Yeah, social hobbies often don't fit the “no deadlines” definition.
  - Retra 8y ago
    If there are no consequences for missing a deadline, why even call it that?
    - khedoros1 8y ago
      There are obvious consequences within the scope of the hobby itself, even if there aren't to your overall life. If you don't get the costume done in time for the convention, then you either miss the convention or go without the costume. Those are the consequences for missing that particular deadline.
- legostormtroopr 8y ago
  I think they made the distinction with the question “what if the deadline slips?” If you don’t finish your costume in time for a con, you miss it. No big deal. If you miss delivering a costume for client for a con, very big deal.
  - monksy 8y ago
    If you keep putting yourself in a position where you have aggressive hard deadlines.. very big deal.
  - ivanhoe 8y ago
    Well, if you're planning a costume for a whole year and then don't finish in time, it's a huge deal, at least for cosplayers that I know. Many of them actually postpone the real-life work before big events in order to finish the costumes and prepare everything. For them it's more of an obsession than just pastime, but still it's a hobby.
    - mantas 8y ago
      Obsession over hobby makes it not a hobby anymore. Been there, done that.
munificent 8y ago
> A true hobby is something that you don't do for money and that has no deadlines attached. I think that's a little too specific and doesn't fit a lot of hobbies. People do often make a little money from their hobbies: fixing up and reselling old cars, thrifting and selling on eBay, refinishing furniture, putting up videos on YouTube. Also, many hobbies have time-critical components. Even all-American pastimes like sports require you to not miss the game. I'd crystalize it like so: A hobby is something you sink time into where failure has no negative consequences. Since people like to pick nits here, that probably needs a couple of qualifiers. The sunk time itself can be considered a negative consequence. And the failure may have negative consequences within the hobby — if you accidentally crush your ship in a bottle, you aren't gonna be happy. But the negative consequences of failure don't bleed out into anything else in your life. You have no need to succeed. That encapsulation of failure is what I think makes hobbies safe and thus encourage fun and a sense of play. The reason it's so often disastrous to turn your hobby into a job is exactly because of that reason: it means you are now adding real stakes to the game. If you failed frequently and safely when it was a hobby, that was fine and you might still love the hobby. Once those failures matter, it can upend the whole cost/benefit calculation.
- nostromo95 8y ago
  I think that definition is actually too general—ironing my shirts or mowing my lawn might apply. I think some nod toward personal fulfillment needs to be there.
  - clarkmoody 8y ago
    Append "and is also not a chore" :-)
- beningrad 8y ago
  I've lately been thinking about the relative healthiness of my hobby, in which failure could definitely bleed into the rest of my life. I go climbing and mountaineering, where the negative consequences for a mistake can be disastrous. Part of the fun of this hobby is the risk assessment with consequences, so I wonder how it skews with your definition. There are similar edge cases with other potentially dangerous hobbies (racing cars, mountain biking, wingsuiting, boxing, etc) and this also brings up the nature of consequences as a delineator. Where you draw the line is very personal--I also tinker with electronics and, as part of that, have messed around with mains electricity. Not saying you're wrong, just throwing a wrench into the works because it has been on my mind and I'm curious what the hive mind has to say.
wslh 8y ago
I agree with OP mindset but not saying there is an unique answer, just different mindsets. Personally, I enjoyed when thinking in a specific problem, improvement, algorithm, etc could last forever. The point was enjoying the moment and connecting the brain with strong feelings about progress and microachievements. I could rewrite the same app from scratch without feeling exhausted, just for pleasure. I also think specialization works against this idea. In the early 80s a computer game was a job of a single or few developers: they were moving a few pixels, using limited colors, and with very limited sound capabilities. Now it is very difficult to impress ourselves or others working in small groups. There are exceptions like computer security, demo scenes, etc but the participants are outliers and not the common denominator.
Steve44 8y ago
> If you are a pretty good hobbyist photographer, one of the worst things you can do is shoot a wedding. Shooting a wedding, even for professional photographers, is one of the highest stress environments possible for photography. I class myself as taking "decent snapshots", have a good DSLR and a fair bit of experience. I've shot three weddings for family & friends, all of them were under duress. None of the couples were going to pay for a photographer so I was pretty much the only alternative to them asking people for whatever pictures they happened to take and share. On the day it was a balance between taking part in the wedding and getting decent pictures, including the formal shots. I was pretty nervous and didn't like the directing part, I prefer to be anonymous in the background. Not everything turned out well but compared to the alternative they were all very happy and I did get good coverage of the days events. I did sort of enjoy it and was well prepared with kit & plans for the day plus it was certainly an experience but have said to myself never again.......
skookumchuck 8y ago
A hobby is something you pay to do.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  So, making money and hustling can't be a hobby?
  - joew42k 8y ago
    No, "making money" and "hustling" can never be a hobby.
skate22 8y ago
Deadlines are the worst. Becoming a guild master ruined WoW for me. A successfull guild is ran like a business. People get upset if you take a raid night off. Being a guild leader was fun for a little bit, but it eventually killed my love for the game
katzgrau 8y ago
I've been a hobbyist DJ for a long time and I would totally agree with this. I began charging a small fee for my time a few years ago (I justified that I should make at least half my freelance dev rate) but even that small price totally ruined the experience for me. Once it became a job it wasn't fun. Now I'm back to doing pro-bono events mainly for non profits and it's fun again.

keerthiko 8y ago

I think making money and doing a hobby need not be independent. Being able to earn money doing something you enjoy makes the activity more sustainable and provides resources you can pour back into the hobby to take it to new heights. Additionally I think maintaining ownership and flexibility of schedule is good to a certain point, but having deadlines and external stakeholders (which you preferably choose and control) also helps for motivation. It's always more rewarding when you meet those than question your commitment to your hobby when you forget about it for a few months because "you were busy".

FooHentai 8y ago

It gets weird for stuff like cosplay. Hard deadlines, still a hobby.

dragonwriter 8y ago
Yeah, social hobbies often don't fit the “no deadlines” definition.
- Retra 8y ago
  If there are no consequences for missing a deadline, why even call it that?
  - khedoros1 8y ago
    There are obvious consequences within the scope of the hobby itself, even if there aren't to your overall life. If you don't get the costume done in time for the convention, then you either miss the convention or go without the costume. Those are the consequences for missing that particular deadline.
legostormtroopr 8y ago
I think they made the distinction with the question “what if the deadline slips?” If you don’t finish your costume in time for a con, you miss it. No big deal. If you miss delivering a costume for client for a con, very big deal.
- monksy 8y ago
  If you keep putting yourself in a position where you have aggressive hard deadlines.. very big deal.
- ivanhoe 8y ago
  Well, if you're planning a costume for a whole year and then don't finish in time, it's a huge deal, at least for cosplayers that I know. Many of them actually postpone the real-life work before big events in order to finish the costumes and prepare everything. For them it's more of an obsession than just pastime, but still it's a hobby.
  - mantas 8y ago
    Obsession over hobby makes it not a hobby anymore. Been there, done that.

munificent 8y ago

> A true hobby is something that you don't do for money and that has no deadlines attached. I think that's a little too specific and doesn't fit a lot of hobbies. People do often make a little money from their hobbies: fixing up and reselling old cars, thrifting and selling on eBay, refinishing furniture, putting up videos on YouTube. Also, many hobbies have time-critical components. Even all-American pastimes like sports require you to not miss the game. I'd crystalize it like so: A hobby is something you sink time into where failure has no negative consequences. Since people like to pick nits here, that probably needs a couple of qualifiers. The sunk time itself can be considered a negative consequence. And the failure may have negative consequences within the hobby — if you accidentally crush your ship in a bottle, you aren't gonna be happy. But the negative consequences of failure don't bleed out into anything else in your life. You have no need to succeed. That encapsulation of failure is what I think makes hobbies safe and thus encourage fun and a sense of play. The reason it's so often disastrous to turn your hobby into a job is exactly because of that reason: it means you are now adding real stakes to the game. If you failed frequently and safely when it was a hobby, that was fine and you might still love the hobby. Once those failures matter, it can upend the whole cost/benefit calculation.

nostromo95 8y ago
I think that definition is actually too general—ironing my shirts or mowing my lawn might apply. I think some nod toward personal fulfillment needs to be there.
- clarkmoody 8y ago
  Append "and is also not a chore" :-)
beningrad 8y ago
I've lately been thinking about the relative healthiness of my hobby, in which failure could definitely bleed into the rest of my life. I go climbing and mountaineering, where the negative consequences for a mistake can be disastrous. Part of the fun of this hobby is the risk assessment with consequences, so I wonder how it skews with your definition. There are similar edge cases with other potentially dangerous hobbies (racing cars, mountain biking, wingsuiting, boxing, etc) and this also brings up the nature of consequences as a delineator. Where you draw the line is very personal--I also tinker with electronics and, as part of that, have messed around with mains electricity. Not saying you're wrong, just throwing a wrench into the works because it has been on my mind and I'm curious what the hive mind has to say.

wslh 8y ago

I agree with OP mindset but not saying there is an unique answer, just different mindsets. Personally, I enjoyed when thinking in a specific problem, improvement, algorithm, etc could last forever. The point was enjoying the moment and connecting the brain with strong feelings about progress and microachievements. I could rewrite the same app from scratch without feeling exhausted, just for pleasure. I also think specialization works against this idea. In the early 80s a computer game was a job of a single or few developers: they were moving a few pixels, using limited colors, and with very limited sound capabilities. Now it is very difficult to impress ourselves or others working in small groups. There are exceptions like computer security, demo scenes, etc but the participants are outliers and not the common denominator.

Steve44 8y ago

> If you are a pretty good hobbyist photographer, one of the worst things you can do is shoot a wedding. Shooting a wedding, even for professional photographers, is one of the highest stress environments possible for photography. I class myself as taking "decent snapshots", have a good DSLR and a fair bit of experience. I've shot three weddings for family & friends, all of them were under duress. None of the couples were going to pay for a photographer so I was pretty much the only alternative to them asking people for whatever pictures they happened to take and share. On the day it was a balance between taking part in the wedding and getting decent pictures, including the formal shots. I was pretty nervous and didn't like the directing part, I prefer to be anonymous in the background. Not everything turned out well but compared to the alternative they were all very happy and I did get good coverage of the days events. I did sort of enjoy it and was well prepared with kit & plans for the day plus it was certainly an experience but have said to myself never again.......

skookumchuck 8y ago

A hobby is something you pay to do.

NicoJuicy 8y ago
So, making money and hustling can't be a hobby?
- joew42k 8y ago
  No, "making money" and "hustling" can never be a hobby.

skate22 8y ago

Deadlines are the worst. Becoming a guild master ruined WoW for me. A successfull guild is ran like a business. People get upset if you take a raid night off. Being a guild leader was fun for a little bit, but it eventually killed my love for the game

katzgrau 8y ago

I've been a hobbyist DJ for a long time and I would totally agree with this. I began charging a small fee for my time a few years ago (I justified that I should make at least half my freelance dev rate) but even that small price totally ruined the experience for me. Once it became a job it wasn't fun. Now I'm back to doing pro-bono events mainly for non profits and it's fun again.