5 ms·

I just don’t see how that could be. When I was studying, we had 2 girls in a peer group of roughly 90 people. All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a

I just don’t see how that could be. When I was studying, we had 2 girls in a peer group of roughly 90 people. All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a pulse. Interestingly, both have graduated, and neither is using her degree now.

slimshady94 8y ago
What is this phenomenon called? I've seen it plenty of times; there must be some research etc on this.
- throwaway84742 8y ago
  The word you’re looking for is “chivalry”. An outmoded concept in these modern times, but alive and well back then.
chrisseaton 8y ago
> I just don’t see how that could be. I'm not sure what you mean? Why would the women be inherently attractive as lab partners? Many men in the lab would probably think that the women would be weaker, or wouldn't know how to interact with them, so wouldn't want them as lab partners. And the men may have a higher chance of knowing each other already from outside the class in sports teams and fraternities, so they would team up with people they already know rather than someone they didn't.
- throwaway84742 8y ago
  Why would they be “weaker”? I don’t get what you’re trying to say.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    I don't think they would be weaker - where do you think I said I thought that? But lots of men definitely do think women are likely to be weaker in computer science. I don't know why they think that - you'd have to ask them?
    - always_good 8y ago
      But you're making the claim that men think that. You can't just pass the buck to your own premise with "dunno, you'll have to ask them."
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        > You can't just pass the buck to your own premise with "dunno, you'll have to ask them." Yes I can. It's completely reasonable to be observe something even if you can't offer an explanation. I don't know why some people are racist but I can see that they are. I don't know why some people are sexist but I can see that they are. I don't know why some people think women are inherently weaker at computer science, but I can see that they do think that by what they say and do.
        leshow 8y ago
        We have no evidence that people do think that though. I have never heard that women are 'weaker' in computer science than men. My guess is most people think that competence in computer science is independent of sex. If you're presenting that they don't, where is that information coming from?
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        > My guess is most people think that competence in computer science is independent of sex. I don't know how to break this to you... but a lot of people in this world unfortunately discriminate against people based on gender, either consciously or unconsciously. > where is that information coming from To give you a concrete example, I was at a conference just recently where the speaker took questions from the audience and when a man asked a question the answer was highly technical, and when a woman asked a similar question the answer was patronising and non-technical as if he thought the woman wouldn't understand like the men did. It was really obvious, and there was no other variable. I see this kind of thing all the time. I don't know what more to tell you - if you can't see any evidence of men making assumptions that a women isn't going to be as competent in computer science just based on her gender then I think you must be blind to what is happening around you.
princekolt 8y ago
I have a hard time believing your anecdotal data point about a third person is enough to claim a person exposing their own experiences is wrong.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
rectang 8y ago
> All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a pulse. Eh, that sounds a bit like those lab partners may have had dubious motivations. I figure it's on those of us who strive for the highest degree of professionalism to take the lead on inclusion.
- smsm42 8y ago
  So, summarizing the comments here: A: Dudes, go befriend a girl, include her! It's not creepy! B: My anecdata experience suggests girls in my lab, where they were in minority, had no problem being included if they wished to, dudes were very eager to do it. C: Motivations of those dudes sound very dubious and creepy! Yup, yup.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    You left out the creepy “have a pulse” part.
    - throwaway84742 8y ago
      No, creepiness exists in your mind only. Believe it or not, we valued the fact that those women were there and we tried to help them out in whatever way we could. My field of study back then (guidance systems, weapons design) is even more male dominated than CS. All male peer groups are not a fun thing to be in. To preclude the question, yes those girls did get asked for a date every now and then. If that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        I read “have a pulse” as “it doesn’t matter how qualified or pleasant these women were, the men were eager to have any contact with a woman and would have taken them on just for that.” Does it mean something else?
        throwaway84742 8y ago

slimshady94 8y ago

What is this phenomenon called? I've seen it plenty of times; there must be some research etc on this.

throwaway84742 8y ago
The word you’re looking for is “chivalry”. An outmoded concept in these modern times, but alive and well back then.

chrisseaton 8y ago

> I just don’t see how that could be. I'm not sure what you mean? Why would the women be inherently attractive as lab partners? Many men in the lab would probably think that the women would be weaker, or wouldn't know how to interact with them, so wouldn't want them as lab partners. And the men may have a higher chance of knowing each other already from outside the class in sports teams and fraternities, so they would team up with people they already know rather than someone they didn't.

throwaway84742 8y ago
Why would they be “weaker”? I don’t get what you’re trying to say.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  I don't think they would be weaker - where do you think I said I thought that? But lots of men definitely do think women are likely to be weaker in computer science. I don't know why they think that - you'd have to ask them?
  - always_good 8y ago
    But you're making the claim that men think that. You can't just pass the buck to your own premise with "dunno, you'll have to ask them."
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > You can't just pass the buck to your own premise with "dunno, you'll have to ask them." Yes I can. It's completely reasonable to be observe something even if you can't offer an explanation. I don't know why some people are racist but I can see that they are. I don't know why some people are sexist but I can see that they are. I don't know why some people think women are inherently weaker at computer science, but I can see that they do think that by what they say and do.
      - leshow 8y ago
        We have no evidence that people do think that though. I have never heard that women are 'weaker' in computer science than men. My guess is most people think that competence in computer science is independent of sex. If you're presenting that they don't, where is that information coming from?
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        > My guess is most people think that competence in computer science is independent of sex. I don't know how to break this to you... but a lot of people in this world unfortunately discriminate against people based on gender, either consciously or unconsciously. > where is that information coming from To give you a concrete example, I was at a conference just recently where the speaker took questions from the audience and when a man asked a question the answer was highly technical, and when a woman asked a similar question the answer was patronising and non-technical as if he thought the woman wouldn't understand like the men did. It was really obvious, and there was no other variable. I see this kind of thing all the time. I don't know what more to tell you - if you can't see any evidence of men making assumptions that a women isn't going to be as competent in computer science just based on her gender then I think you must be blind to what is happening around you.

princekolt 8y ago

I have a hard time believing your anecdotal data point about a third person is enough to claim a person exposing their own experiences is wrong.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

rectang 8y ago

> All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a pulse. Eh, that sounds a bit like those lab partners may have had dubious motivations. I figure it's on those of us who strive for the highest degree of professionalism to take the lead on inclusion.

smsm42 8y ago
So, summarizing the comments here: A: Dudes, go befriend a girl, include her! It's not creepy! B: My anecdata experience suggests girls in my lab, where they were in minority, had no problem being included if they wished to, dudes were very eager to do it. C: Motivations of those dudes sound very dubious and creepy! Yup, yup.
- mikeash 8y ago
  You left out the creepy “have a pulse” part.
  - throwaway84742 8y ago
    No, creepiness exists in your mind only. Believe it or not, we valued the fact that those women were there and we tried to help them out in whatever way we could. My field of study back then (guidance systems, weapons design) is even more male dominated than CS. All male peer groups are not a fun thing to be in. To preclude the question, yes those girls did get asked for a date every now and then. If that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I read “have a pulse” as “it doesn’t matter how qualified or pleasant these women were, the men were eager to have any contact with a woman and would have taken them on just for that.” Does it mean something else?
      - throwaway84742 8y ago