9 ms·

I notice that the big decline in female enrollment in CS came around the time the Hollywood stereotype of a computer programmer changed from a well-intentioned

I notice that the big decline in female enrollment in CS came around the time the Hollywood stereotype of a computer programmer changed from a well-intentioned labcoated professional whose creation might have gotten a bit out of control to a basement dwelling hacker carrying out a solo fight against the bullies, the man, etc.

ghaff 9y ago
Which also corresponded to home PCs and gaming consoles becoming common. So computers became more about a hobby with often limited social interaction as opposed to being solely about something that college students and adults pursuing computing as a profession did. Which arguably also led to this idea that if you haven’t been doing computing recreationally since you were a kid you obviously are not Passionate enough to join $disruptive_startup.
- walshemj 9y ago
  I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.
  - mjmahone17 9y ago
    The idea that, if you have no experience programming going into college, you’ll struggle, is strange to me. About a third of my graduating CS class had no prior experience. Did we take more time to finish the first semester projects? Sometimes. But after the first semester prior experience seemed to have very little effect on class performance.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      I think it does depend on the curriculum. I have experience programming, although I don’t really do it professionally. I’ve taken an intro programming MOOC course from an elite school and I have trouble believing someone coming in completely cold would have a chance. (Admittedly in a campus environment there would be TAs and other students but the contrast to when I took intro programming at school was night and day.)
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
      You're assuming CS class performance correlates with ability. Most of the people on my CS course hadn't programmed before, and they mostly all passed. But many of them couldn't code at graduation and went into non-programming jobs. They passed anyway because the university carefully rigged the course to ensure it was possible to get good grades despite being unable to write any sort of non-trivial program. After all what are they going to do, constantly fail 90% of their class and attract questions about their own competence as teachers?
  - ghaff 9y ago
    I’m honestly not so sure about that. The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small. And it really isn’t true of just about any other branch of engineering or science. How many bridges do you think someone majoring in civil engineering has designed? The fact that a lot of CS curricula only address those who have been programming as a hobby is a bug not a feature.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      Many other countries mandate that you study at school the subject (or direct precursors) you take at Uni. You not going to study Physics at Oxbridge if you don't have GCSE and A levels in the Subject why is EE and CS considered different. Some lists of the "English" cannon are 200+ texts and that's not counting some of the classical authors you should have read - and that's not counting any BAME texts you might want to look at for diversity.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        The English cannon should be shot. :-) The word you're looking for is "canon".
        walshemj 9y ago
        And Dyslexia sucks :-)
        AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        And now I feel like a heel for picking on your spelling. :-<
    - troupe 9y ago
      > The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small. You think there are a lot of kids declaring English Literature as their major who haven't really read any English literature? What type of college are you assuming?
  - always_good 9y ago
    Sounds little more than a self-aggrandizing belief to me. The thought that other people can't run your gauntlet. You'd be surprised that not only can they, but all they need is more motivation or discipline and then they can lap you. Just like someone who didn't learn to exercise until later in life.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    The chair of the CS department at Stanford majored in Trombone.
    - troupe 9y ago
      Alex Aiken double majored in Music and CS.
  - wilsonnb 9y ago
    I had a very smart and talented professor for several undergraduate classes who entered the computer science field after getting an BA in Music and a PhD in Musicology. It didn't seem to slow him down. The only thing I programmed before I switched from a music major to computer science was a TI-83 calculator for a few weeks in the 8th grade. Technically that counts as experience but I have a feeling you meant more extensive experience. Regardless of whether my experience counted or not, I find the notion that only those who start programming before university will not struggle to be ridiculous.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    There's a big difference to formal exposure in a programming class in high school and a lifetime of hobbyist tinkering with tech.
eli 9y ago
It was also around the time CS because a high-paying and desirable career path.

ghaff 9y ago

Which also corresponded to home PCs and gaming consoles becoming common. So computers became more about a hobby with often limited social interaction as opposed to being solely about something that college students and adults pursuing computing as a profession did. Which arguably also led to this idea that if you haven’t been doing computing recreationally since you were a kid you obviously are not Passionate enough to join $disruptive_startup.

walshemj 9y ago
I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.
- mjmahone17 9y ago
  The idea that, if you have no experience programming going into college, you’ll struggle, is strange to me. About a third of my graduating CS class had no prior experience. Did we take more time to finish the first semester projects? Sometimes. But after the first semester prior experience seemed to have very little effect on class performance.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    I think it does depend on the curriculum. I have experience programming, although I don’t really do it professionally. I’ve taken an intro programming MOOC course from an elite school and I have trouble believing someone coming in completely cold would have a chance. (Admittedly in a campus environment there would be TAs and other students but the contrast to when I took intro programming at school was night and day.)
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    You're assuming CS class performance correlates with ability. Most of the people on my CS course hadn't programmed before, and they mostly all passed. But many of them couldn't code at graduation and went into non-programming jobs. They passed anyway because the university carefully rigged the course to ensure it was possible to get good grades despite being unable to write any sort of non-trivial program. After all what are they going to do, constantly fail 90% of their class and attract questions about their own competence as teachers?
- ghaff 9y ago
  I’m honestly not so sure about that. The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small. And it really isn’t true of just about any other branch of engineering or science. How many bridges do you think someone majoring in civil engineering has designed? The fact that a lot of CS curricula only address those who have been programming as a hobby is a bug not a feature.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Many other countries mandate that you study at school the subject (or direct precursors) you take at Uni. You not going to study Physics at Oxbridge if you don't have GCSE and A levels in the Subject why is EE and CS considered different. Some lists of the "English" cannon are 200+ texts and that's not counting some of the classical authors you should have read - and that's not counting any BAME texts you might want to look at for diversity.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      The English cannon should be shot. :-) The word you're looking for is "canon".
      - walshemj 9y ago
        And Dyslexia sucks :-)
        AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        And now I feel like a heel for picking on your spelling. :-<
  - troupe 9y ago
    > The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small. You think there are a lot of kids declaring English Literature as their major who haven't really read any English literature? What type of college are you assuming?
- always_good 9y ago
  Sounds little more than a self-aggrandizing belief to me. The thought that other people can't run your gauntlet. You'd be surprised that not only can they, but all they need is more motivation or discipline and then they can lap you. Just like someone who didn't learn to exercise until later in life.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  The chair of the CS department at Stanford majored in Trombone.
  - troupe 9y ago
    Alex Aiken double majored in Music and CS.
- wilsonnb 9y ago
  I had a very smart and talented professor for several undergraduate classes who entered the computer science field after getting an BA in Music and a PhD in Musicology. It didn't seem to slow him down. The only thing I programmed before I switched from a music major to computer science was a TI-83 calculator for a few weeks in the 8th grade. Technically that counts as experience but I have a feeling you meant more extensive experience. Regardless of whether my experience counted or not, I find the notion that only those who start programming before university will not struggle to be ridiculous.
- sidlls 9y ago
  There's a big difference to formal exposure in a programming class in high school and a lifetime of hobbyist tinkering with tech.

eli 9y ago

It was also around the time CS because a high-paying and desirable career path.