4 ms·

I had to read a little bit to find the real reason - combine faulty signals which trigger over-speed warnings when they shouldn’t — with the following... “Trai

by zaroth 9y ago

I had to read a little bit to find the real reason - combine faulty signals which trigger over-speed warnings when they shouldn’t — with the following... “Train operators face steep penalties after a number of instances of tripping a signal, like losing vacation days or being forced into early retirement.” That’s a recipe for exactly the problem they are seeing. Fix the signals. Fix the policy. It will fix the problem. But I also suspect this whole thing is much more intentional than we are being led to believe — it’s actually intentional policies which have led to expected slowdowns in a jaded attempt to boost funding. The whole narrative around overcrowding has collapsed. The narrative around underfunding is also collapsing. But I’m not sure the other shoe (proof that this was a charade to increase funding) has dropped quite yet.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
We live in a society where all the actors in the system need to virtue signal about how much they care about safety, usefulness of the system be damned. That's why the draconian speed limit policy in the first place. The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers. The MTA wants signal enforced speed limits so they can say they're preventing crashes. If we could just have an adult discussion about the damage of marginally (if at all) increased risk compared to the benefits of a more functional subway system this wouldn't be as big of a problem. This isn't even a resources issue, changing policy is close to free.
- gamblor956 9y ago
  The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers. Have you ever performed maintenance literally inches from a train going 40mph? The union has valid safety concerns for wanting trains to slow down in the vicinity of workers, and this particular safety measure only applies to late-night routes when they are performing maintenance on closed lines that share tracks with operating lines. The problem is that the MTA introduced a number of other "safety" measures that did nothing to affect the safety of workers or employees, such as increasing the distance between cars or introducing speed-limiting signals, and these other measures apply 24-7.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    Trains don't need humans to steer them and the humans there are being paid to (presumably) operate them safely. Cops and tow truck drivers have more exposure to worse traffic going faster for less pay and nobody is in a hurry to bring back the national speed limit. I'd take working on tracks over changing someone's tire on the side of the highway.
    - bobthepanda 9y ago
      Trains also have really long braking distances. If you can see a track worker in the way, it's already too late. Hence the declaration of these work zones. In my areas, they usually close a lane next to the accident in addition to the lane where the accident occurred. This is basically the exact same thing.
      - slededit 9y ago
        They close an entire highway lane for the towtruck moving a stalled car off the shoulder? Not all towtruck work is related to accidents, in fact most of it isn't.
        dmckeon 9y ago
        Many US states require drivers to move over, leaving an empty lane next to emergency workers. Specific state laws vary for law enforcement, fire and emergency medical, highway workers, tow truck operators, and disabled vehicles, but while all states appear to at least nominally require moving over for law enforcement. California does not seem to notify drivers on the road much, but other western states do notify/advertise much more, and Indiana and Ohio are fairly vehement about it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_over_law#In_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_over_law#In_the_United_...
  - fusiongyro 9y ago
    I imagine if it were my job to perform maintenance inches from a train going 40mph, I would grow accustomed to it before long. While we're at it, feeling safe and being safe aren't the same thing.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers If it results in increased funding, for problems mistakenly blamed on overcrowding, that can result in more money for the union leadership, too.
bobthepanda 9y ago
Eh, I don't know if the narrative around underfunding is collapsing. Most of the narrative around overpriced projects has been around the large flashy projects, but the mundane replacement and maintenance is still not fully funded. The crux of the issue is that while operations are funded with a variety of dedicated resources, capital expenditures are not, and those include things like replacing tracks, signals, and trains. Most of the recent fare hikes, IIRC, would have been avoided if the State and City provided funding for these plans, but they don't, so the MTA issues debt, and these hikes are almost entirely just to keep up with debt interest.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  Mundane replacement and maintenance, just like the big flashy projects, are insanely expensive per unit work. It’s one thing to pay workers really well (especially when you include benefits on an accrual basis) but it’s another to pay really well and have terrible labor efficiency.

by zaroth 9y ago

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

We live in a society where all the actors in the system need to virtue signal about how much they care about safety, usefulness of the system be damned. That's why the draconian speed limit policy in the first place. The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers. The MTA wants signal enforced speed limits so they can say they're preventing crashes. If we could just have an adult discussion about the damage of marginally (if at all) increased risk compared to the benefits of a more functional subway system this wouldn't be as big of a problem. This isn't even a resources issue, changing policy is close to free.

gamblor956 9y ago
The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers. Have you ever performed maintenance literally inches from a train going 40mph? The union has valid safety concerns for wanting trains to slow down in the vicinity of workers, and this particular safety measure only applies to late-night routes when they are performing maintenance on closed lines that share tracks with operating lines. The problem is that the MTA introduced a number of other "safety" measures that did nothing to affect the safety of workers or employees, such as increasing the distance between cars or introducing speed-limiting signals, and these other measures apply 24-7.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  Trains don't need humans to steer them and the humans there are being paid to (presumably) operate them safely. Cops and tow truck drivers have more exposure to worse traffic going faster for less pay and nobody is in a hurry to bring back the national speed limit. I'd take working on tracks over changing someone's tire on the side of the highway.
  - bobthepanda 9y ago
    Trains also have really long braking distances. If you can see a track worker in the way, it's already too late. Hence the declaration of these work zones. In my areas, they usually close a lane next to the accident in addition to the lane where the accident occurred. This is basically the exact same thing.
    - slededit 9y ago
      They close an entire highway lane for the towtruck moving a stalled car off the shoulder? Not all towtruck work is related to accidents, in fact most of it isn't.
      - dmckeon 9y ago
        Many US states require drivers to move over, leaving an empty lane next to emergency workers. Specific state laws vary for law enforcement, fire and emergency medical, highway workers, tow truck operators, and disabled vehicles, but while all states appear to at least nominally require moving over for law enforcement. California does not seem to notify drivers on the road much, but other western states do notify/advertise much more, and Indiana and Ohio are fairly vehement about it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_over_law#In_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Move_over_law#In_the_United_...
- fusiongyro 9y ago
  I imagine if it were my job to perform maintenance inches from a train going 40mph, I would grow accustomed to it before long. While we're at it, feeling safe and being safe aren't the same thing.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> The union wants the trains to go slow so they can say they're fighting for policies that protect workers If it results in increased funding, for problems mistakenly blamed on overcrowding, that can result in more money for the union leadership, too.

bobthepanda 9y ago

Eh, I don't know if the narrative around underfunding is collapsing. Most of the narrative around overpriced projects has been around the large flashy projects, but the mundane replacement and maintenance is still not fully funded. The crux of the issue is that while operations are funded with a variety of dedicated resources, capital expenditures are not, and those include things like replacing tracks, signals, and trains. Most of the recent fare hikes, IIRC, would have been avoided if the State and City provided funding for these plans, but they don't, so the MTA issues debt, and these hikes are almost entirely just to keep up with debt interest.

bradleyjg 9y ago
Mundane replacement and maintenance, just like the big flashy projects, are insanely expensive per unit work. It’s one thing to pay workers really well (especially when you include benefits on an accrual basis) but it’s another to pay really well and have terrible labor efficiency.