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Tidal Accused of Falsifying Beyonce and Kanye West Streaming Numbers

143 points by spking 9y ago

teachrdan 9y ago
FTA: Tidal, which has rarely shared its data publicly, had a streaming exclusive on West’s album for its first six weeks of release and continues to be the exclusive streamer for Beyonce’s album. It claimed that West’s album had been streamed 250 million times in its first 10 days of release in February of 2016, while claiming it had just 3 million subscribers — a claim that would have meant every subscriber played the album an average of eight times per day; and that Beyonce’s album was streamed 306 million times in its first 15 days of release in April of 2016. Does anyone believe those numbers on face?
- matte_black 9y ago
  No.
- citricsquid 9y ago
  As I understand it the 250,000,000 number refers to total streams of all tracks on the album[1], it does not refer to plays of the entire album, so the article is wrong. The album is 20 tracks which means we're looking at 12.5 million streams per track. There were (and still are) many offers for a free Tidal trial, which were shared all over the internet at the time the album became available, so I do think it's possible that Tidal could have had those numbers. Paying subscribers? No, but users? You could sign up to Tidal for free, and Kanye albums are very highly anticipated... Is it reasonable to expect ~3 million people to each listen to an album ~4 times through on average? I certainly listened to it at least a dozen times in the first 2 weeks and know many friends who did the same. For comparison Taylor Swift's album Reputation did ~500,000,000 streams in the first few weeks after it launched, granted that was available on all services and not just Tidal: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42564917 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42564917 I'm a little suspicious of the numbers, given Taylor Swift has a wider appeal than Kanye and her album was on all services but you could sign up for Tidal for free and the article is clearly wrong when it says "a claim that would have meant every subscriber played the album an average of eight times per day" so I'm inclined to say Tidal are telling the truth because if they did inflate the numbers then they would not have needed to inflate them from, say, 25 million to 250 million which is what the report seems to suggest. [1] See the BBC Taylor Swift article for an example of how the figures are calculated
  - jsgo 9y ago
    At this stage, I think as far as for metrics of this nature, it is time to stop quantifying album streams and focus on streams of tracks within the albums (in the example you gave, someone streaming the entire album should count 20x). I, myself, still buy albums in full, but I think there's a significant number of people who go for singles at this stage. Streaming, probably just as much of a divide. To focus at the track level is about the only way to quantify for both cases.
    - okmokmz 9y ago
      >it is time to stop quantifying album streams and focus on streams of tracks within the albums They already do this (or at least the RIAA does) >In the new structure, 150 streams of a song equals one paid download, and ten paid downloads equates to an album download. So, an artist’s music will have to be streamed on any of the approved, included services 1,500 times for an album “sale” to be counted. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2016/02/13/now-that-streaming-can-make-a-song-platinum-what-counts-and-what-doesnt/#41f205d617ef https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2016/02/13/now-tha...
      - jsgo 9y ago
        > ten paid downloads equates to an album download. But it gets fuzzy here. If the album has 10 tracks, it makes sense, but for ones with less than that or more than that, it doesn't hash out. I'm just saying for these kind of metrics they should, now, stick to the track level but group them by album (ie Taylor Swift would have x streams/downloads from 1989 and y streams/downloads from Reputation). Albums in these metrics just muddies the water too much and doesn't really quantify for those who go for singles. Say an artist releases a really, really popular song on a terrible album that no one buys/streams. That song performs well, lots of streams and lots of downloads or buys. Should the album be considered a hit if it is just a single track on it that performed well? Even if no one, or relatively few, streamed or bought the album proper?
        simlevesque 9y ago
- jsgo 9y ago
  I remember in an entertainment article a while back that Kanye West was upset with Jay-Z/Tidal during one of his concerts because he felt they were withholding money from him. I wonder if the potentially (likely) bogus numbers vs reality were the cause for his frustration (believing the numbers).
- lokelow 9y ago
  As I log in to Tidal right now, and got to top 20 albums, Kanye's The Life of Pablo is at #8 and Beyonce's Lemonade is at #9. TLOP has consistently been in the top 20 since it came out (over 2 years ago!) as has Lemonade (also over 2 years ago!). I don't buy any of it.
frou_dh 9y ago
ANECDOTE: I've never heard anyone mention Tidal in real life even once.
- BartBoch 9y ago
  I gave them a chance and I am highly disappointed. Not because of quality of music, or their mobile app (which is average at most). But because of their web app. I am using it when I work, so on my laptop. Here is few reasons why its so bad: -Flash first - yup, it tries to force you to use Flash version of the site. You need to use a trick to disable their messages about it. -Recommendation/Discovery is missing completely from the web app. On the mobile app, I will get recommended albums based on what I have listened to. On Web App, I will be given only latest, popular albums. No personalization at all. -Manual discovery is broken - I do not know about their algorithm, but for example, when I listen to some electronic music and click to get tracks similar to that I am up for a surprise. I can get some metal track, popular top chart song or niche rap. Most of the times it is nothing related to what I am listening currently. So yeah, for a free app its cool, but once my paid account expires, I am moving to Spotify. And about the numbers - in Europe, many major mobile brands offer 1-year Tidal for free with a contract signed. Talk about inflated numbers.
- ct520 9y ago
  Your friends dont listen to beyonce, count yourself lucky.
- overcast 9y ago
  A lot of the draw for Tidal is the lossless streams. That is a big deal for audiophile people, which you and your friends are not a part of.
  - DonbunEf7 9y ago
    Serious audiophiles are all pirates at this point if they aren't into diving for vinyl. A losslessly-encoded stream is near-worthless compared to a lossless rip, which is actually useful as archival material. My friends, especially my musician friends, are all pirates. It's by far the most practical way to do music. I might change my tune if Tidal's streams are easy to save, but I haven't seen any technology for doing that.
piker 9y ago
Can someone explain a motive for this? If Jay-Z owns the service, and the service pays royalties to artists streamed on it, is this just Jay-Z transferring some wealth to his wife and friend?
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  It makes the service seem more popular. Like it's supposed to fuel your fear of missing out.
- evgen 9y ago
  Tidal exists to be sold to some other media company or online service so that Jay-Z can finally make billionaire status. I am sure seeing Dr. Dre up there on those lists motivates him more than anything else in the world at the moment...
- rconti 9y ago
  And would this be merely a civil matter or potentially criminal?
- sjburt 9y ago
  They don't pay a fixed price per stream; they just take some portion of revenue and pay the artists in proportion to the number of streams each artist had. So it's a way to give more money to Beyonce/Kanye and less to other artists.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fullshark 9y ago
  The Beyonce and Kanye West exclusives were major selling points when Tidal launched, I think they also wanted other artists to do exclusives (Prince had an exclusive with them for a while).
wehadfun 9y ago
I plan to switch to Tidal. They pay artist the most. Only the top, top artist are making money on Spotify. I like to listen to indie/small label bands. I don't buy albums, go to concerts. Tidal seems to be the best way to support these artist.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- exolymph 9y ago
  Bandcamp is the best way to support indie/small label bands. Buy their albums with actual dollars, then stream them.
- rconti 9y ago
  I'm sorry, but this reads like astroturfing. I don't think it is, but it 100% feels that way. And, from what I can see, Tidal is a service owned by phenomenally rich artists who have been the best compensated by the existing record label structure (at the expense of indie artists), trying to throw their weight around and maintain their power in streaming as well. While fraudulently depriving other artists of revenue from Tidal, if this article is correct.
  - wehadfun 9y ago
    Astroturfing accusation? Really? People profess their love or hate for things all the time. There is a comment below talking about how great Spotify is are you going to accuse it of Astroturfing as well? Anyway if you simply Google which streaming platforms pay artist the most Tidal tops the list all the time.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > I'm sorry, but this reads like astroturfing. Without concrete evidence you should not make such claims.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tomc1985 9y ago
It is foolish to trust Tidal's numbers... they're privately-owned by artists in a genre known for fictionalized details
colecut 9y ago
"Falsifying" is a strong term... They probably just released some alternative stats
rainbowmverse 9y ago
Tidal was one of the sites I submitted music to last time I tried DistroKid. They took 6 months to get it up (vs the 1-7 days for every other store), and it had worse results than even the already weak results of the others.
- jedimastert 9y ago
  That's really weird. I just submitted my first album to DistroKid about 4 hours ago and it's already up. Waaaaay quicker than I thought it was going to be. Then again, it might be a genre thing. Mine is a chill piano album I put under "Jazz"
  - rainbowmverse 9y ago
    I meant Tidal specifically. DistroKid isn't the problem. I'm sure they send it to the store almost instantly.

143 points by spking 9y ago

FTA: Tidal, which has rarely shared its data publicly, had a streaming exclusive on West’s album for its first six weeks of release and continues to be the exclusive streamer for Beyonce’s album. It claimed that West’s album had been streamed 250 million times in its first 10 days of release in February of 2016, while claiming it had just 3 million subscribers — a claim that would have meant every subscriber played the album an average of eight times per day; and that Beyonce’s album was streamed 306 million times in its first 15 days of release in April of 2016. Does anyone believe those numbers on face?

matte_black 9y ago
No.
citricsquid 9y ago
As I understand it the 250,000,000 number refers to total streams of all tracks on the album[1], it does not refer to plays of the entire album, so the article is wrong. The album is 20 tracks which means we're looking at 12.5 million streams per track. There were (and still are) many offers for a free Tidal trial, which were shared all over the internet at the time the album became available, so I do think it's possible that Tidal could have had those numbers. Paying subscribers? No, but users? You could sign up to Tidal for free, and Kanye albums are very highly anticipated... Is it reasonable to expect ~3 million people to each listen to an album ~4 times through on average? I certainly listened to it at least a dozen times in the first 2 weeks and know many friends who did the same. For comparison Taylor Swift's album Reputation did ~500,000,000 streams in the first few weeks after it launched, granted that was available on all services and not just Tidal: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42564917 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42564917 I'm a little suspicious of the numbers, given Taylor Swift has a wider appeal than Kanye and her album was on all services but you could sign up for Tidal for free and the article is clearly wrong when it says "a claim that would have meant every subscriber played the album an average of eight times per day" so I'm inclined to say Tidal are telling the truth because if they did inflate the numbers then they would not have needed to inflate them from, say, 25 million to 250 million which is what the report seems to suggest. [1] See the BBC Taylor Swift article for an example of how the figures are calculated
- jsgo 9y ago
  At this stage, I think as far as for metrics of this nature, it is time to stop quantifying album streams and focus on streams of tracks within the albums (in the example you gave, someone streaming the entire album should count 20x). I, myself, still buy albums in full, but I think there's a significant number of people who go for singles at this stage. Streaming, probably just as much of a divide. To focus at the track level is about the only way to quantify for both cases.
  - okmokmz 9y ago
    >it is time to stop quantifying album streams and focus on streams of tracks within the albums They already do this (or at least the RIAA does) >In the new structure, 150 streams of a song equals one paid download, and ten paid downloads equates to an album download. So, an artist’s music will have to be streamed on any of the approved, included services 1,500 times for an album “sale” to be counted. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2016/02/13/now-that-streaming-can-make-a-song-platinum-what-counts-and-what-doesnt/#41f205d617ef https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2016/02/13/now-tha...
    - jsgo 9y ago
      > ten paid downloads equates to an album download. But it gets fuzzy here. If the album has 10 tracks, it makes sense, but for ones with less than that or more than that, it doesn't hash out. I'm just saying for these kind of metrics they should, now, stick to the track level but group them by album (ie Taylor Swift would have x streams/downloads from 1989 and y streams/downloads from Reputation). Albums in these metrics just muddies the water too much and doesn't really quantify for those who go for singles. Say an artist releases a really, really popular song on a terrible album that no one buys/streams. That song performs well, lots of streams and lots of downloads or buys. Should the album be considered a hit if it is just a single track on it that performed well? Even if no one, or relatively few, streamed or bought the album proper?
      - simlevesque 9y ago
jsgo 9y ago
I remember in an entertainment article a while back that Kanye West was upset with Jay-Z/Tidal during one of his concerts because he felt they were withholding money from him. I wonder if the potentially (likely) bogus numbers vs reality were the cause for his frustration (believing the numbers).
lokelow 9y ago
As I log in to Tidal right now, and got to top 20 albums, Kanye's The Life of Pablo is at #8 and Beyonce's Lemonade is at #9. TLOP has consistently been in the top 20 since it came out (over 2 years ago!) as has Lemonade (also over 2 years ago!). I don't buy any of it.

frou_dh 9y ago

ANECDOTE: I've never heard anyone mention Tidal in real life even once.

BartBoch 9y ago
I gave them a chance and I am highly disappointed. Not because of quality of music, or their mobile app (which is average at most). But because of their web app. I am using it when I work, so on my laptop. Here is few reasons why its so bad: -Flash first - yup, it tries to force you to use Flash version of the site. You need to use a trick to disable their messages about it. -Recommendation/Discovery is missing completely from the web app. On the mobile app, I will get recommended albums based on what I have listened to. On Web App, I will be given only latest, popular albums. No personalization at all. -Manual discovery is broken - I do not know about their algorithm, but for example, when I listen to some electronic music and click to get tracks similar to that I am up for a surprise. I can get some metal track, popular top chart song or niche rap. Most of the times it is nothing related to what I am listening currently. So yeah, for a free app its cool, but once my paid account expires, I am moving to Spotify. And about the numbers - in Europe, many major mobile brands offer 1-year Tidal for free with a contract signed. Talk about inflated numbers.
ct520 9y ago
Your friends dont listen to beyonce, count yourself lucky.
overcast 9y ago
A lot of the draw for Tidal is the lossless streams. That is a big deal for audiophile people, which you and your friends are not a part of.
- DonbunEf7 9y ago
  Serious audiophiles are all pirates at this point if they aren't into diving for vinyl. A losslessly-encoded stream is near-worthless compared to a lossless rip, which is actually useful as archival material. My friends, especially my musician friends, are all pirates. It's by far the most practical way to do music. I might change my tune if Tidal's streams are easy to save, but I haven't seen any technology for doing that.

piker 9y ago

Can someone explain a motive for this? If Jay-Z owns the service, and the service pays royalties to artists streamed on it, is this just Jay-Z transferring some wealth to his wife and friend?

adamnemecek 9y ago
It makes the service seem more popular. Like it's supposed to fuel your fear of missing out.
evgen 9y ago
Tidal exists to be sold to some other media company or online service so that Jay-Z can finally make billionaire status. I am sure seeing Dr. Dre up there on those lists motivates him more than anything else in the world at the moment...
rconti 9y ago
And would this be merely a civil matter or potentially criminal?
sjburt 9y ago
They don't pay a fixed price per stream; they just take some portion of revenue and pay the artists in proportion to the number of streams each artist had. So it's a way to give more money to Beyonce/Kanye and less to other artists.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fullshark 9y ago
The Beyonce and Kanye West exclusives were major selling points when Tidal launched, I think they also wanted other artists to do exclusives (Prince had an exclusive with them for a while).

wehadfun 9y ago

I plan to switch to Tidal. They pay artist the most. Only the top, top artist are making money on Spotify. I like to listen to indie/small label bands. I don't buy albums, go to concerts. Tidal seems to be the best way to support these artist.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
exolymph 9y ago
Bandcamp is the best way to support indie/small label bands. Buy their albums with actual dollars, then stream them.
rconti 9y ago
I'm sorry, but this reads like astroturfing. I don't think it is, but it 100% feels that way. And, from what I can see, Tidal is a service owned by phenomenally rich artists who have been the best compensated by the existing record label structure (at the expense of indie artists), trying to throw their weight around and maintain their power in streaming as well. While fraudulently depriving other artists of revenue from Tidal, if this article is correct.
- wehadfun 9y ago
  Astroturfing accusation? Really? People profess their love or hate for things all the time. There is a comment below talking about how great Spotify is are you going to accuse it of Astroturfing as well? Anyway if you simply Google which streaming platforms pay artist the most Tidal tops the list all the time.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > I'm sorry, but this reads like astroturfing. Without concrete evidence you should not make such claims.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

tomc1985 9y ago

It is foolish to trust Tidal's numbers... they're privately-owned by artists in a genre known for fictionalized details

colecut 9y ago

"Falsifying" is a strong term... They probably just released some alternative stats

rainbowmverse 9y ago

Tidal was one of the sites I submitted music to last time I tried DistroKid. They took 6 months to get it up (vs the 1-7 days for every other store), and it had worse results than even the already weak results of the others.

jedimastert 9y ago
That's really weird. I just submitted my first album to DistroKid about 4 hours ago and it's already up. Waaaaay quicker than I thought it was going to be. Then again, it might be a genre thing. Mine is a chill piano album I put under "Jazz"
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  I meant Tidal specifically. DistroKid isn't the problem. I'm sure they send it to the store almost instantly.