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> Investments need to have intrinsic value. > there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers What is the "intrinsic value" in e.g. an iPhone? Would

> Investments need to have intrinsic value. > there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers What is the "intrinsic value" in e.g. an iPhone? Would that value exist without humans? I would say no, it only has value because people are willing to pay for it. So I'm left wondering what principled distinction you can draw between a particular set of random numbers and a particular arrangement of metal and glass, both of which people want, to determine that one has intrinsic value and one does not.

acdha 8y ago
iPhones do useful things which aren’t dependent on you selling them. There’s nothing which you can do with bitcoin other than buy things so it’s only valuable to the extent that it does that better than the alternatives.
gamblor956 8y ago
Intrinsic value is a value that derives from the use of properties of the thing. It's not a derived value that requires the imposition of an additional layer of context to make the property valuable. The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera, thrown weapon, etc. If you want to be pedantic about it, the components that make up the iPhone have the intrinsic values of being usable for one or more of the above functions, and the materials that go into those components have the intrinsic value of being usable in industrial/commercial products or processes. A bitcoin literally has no use inherent use on its own. It's simply a number. The exchange of these numbers has no intrinsic value, it would be like me and Adam exchanging a 2 and a 3 (not dollars or anything other units, literally just the numbers). Any value from the exchange is an additional layer of context imposed by me and Adam on the transaction--it's not intrinsic to the bitcoin itself.
- ryanmonroe 8y ago
  > The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera Okay, but you're just shifting the value down the line. What makes computing or entertainment valuable, other than the fact that they are things humans want?
erdojo 8y ago
You're comparing things that have no relation.

acdha 8y ago

iPhones do useful things which aren’t dependent on you selling them. There’s nothing which you can do with bitcoin other than buy things so it’s only valuable to the extent that it does that better than the alternatives.

gamblor956 8y ago

Intrinsic value is a value that derives from the use of properties of the thing. It's not a derived value that requires the imposition of an additional layer of context to make the property valuable. The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera, thrown weapon, etc. If you want to be pedantic about it, the components that make up the iPhone have the intrinsic values of being usable for one or more of the above functions, and the materials that go into those components have the intrinsic value of being usable in industrial/commercial products or processes. A bitcoin literally has no use inherent use on its own. It's simply a number. The exchange of these numbers has no intrinsic value, it would be like me and Adam exchanging a 2 and a 3 (not dollars or anything other units, literally just the numbers). Any value from the exchange is an additional layer of context imposed by me and Adam on the transaction--it's not intrinsic to the bitcoin itself.

ryanmonroe 8y ago
> The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera Okay, but you're just shifting the value down the line. What makes computing or entertainment valuable, other than the fact that they are things humans want?

erdojo 8y ago

You're comparing things that have no relation.