5 ms·

Am I missing something here? Paying cash doesn't prevent the opening of fraudulent lines of credit in your name. Equifax et al don't particularly care if you p

by gascan 8y ago

Am I missing something here? Paying cash doesn't prevent the opening of fraudulent lines of credit in your name. Equifax et al don't particularly care if you pay cash, they have some form of record on you either way.

jessaustin 8y ago
I guess the idea is that if one were "off the grid" enough not to have a phone, one's details wouldn't be in their DB in the first place. That would make one's identity harder to steal, which would cause the thieves to move on to the next victim.
- city41 8y ago
  But I think you need to be 100% off the grid to accomplish that. Which in today's society is practically impossible. If you're on the grid at all, you're open to attack. Since you have to take that hit anyway, might as well also take advantage of the benefits the grid offers.
- drablyechoes 8y ago
  The SSN of someone "off the grid" would actually be perfect for doing what is called synthetic identity fraud. If a given SSN has no credit history, you can make up a fictitious person and apply for a credit card with it. The application is probably declined, but a record of this SSN associated to a completely fictitious identity now exists in the credit reporting agencies databases, which makes it more likely that a future credit application will be approved. If there is no other identity using this SSN, then the likelihood of the fraudulent activity being dectected is low. This is why SSNs belonging to elderly people, children/teenagers, and the recently deceased are of relatively higher value for a lot of people out there doing identity fraud.
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    Stealing someone else's unused SSN is not synthetic identity creation, it's just fraud. There is a living person associated with that SSN, even if they are off the grid. Synthetic identity fraud involves you making a bunch of inquiries with completely fake SSNs and squatting on them for a few years, maybe bringing them out of cold storage every so often to make a few more inquiries to keep them on the credit-building radar before you ultimately qualify for actual lines of credit and do a bust-out. There is no oblivious meatbag being used as a patsy-- the identities are completely fake, which is what makes them synthetic.
    - drablyechoes 8y ago
      There is more than one way to construct a synthetic identity, but in most cases that I've been aware of, a stolen SSN is used to construct the totally fake identity. Using a completely fake SSN instead of a stolen SSN is what distinguishes "synthetic identity theft" from "synthetic identity fraud". The identities in both cases are completely fake, but only in the identity theft case is the synthetic identity backstopped by a legitimate SSN that belongs to a real person somewhere. If that real person is a child or "off the grid", then the CRAs have no idea who the real person is and their SSN is ripe for creating a synthetic identity that will probably go undetected for years.
convolvatron 8y ago
if you use cash exclusively, then you have no credit to exploit. equifax knows about me, but no one will give me a loan.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > if you use cash exclusively, then you have no credit to exploit If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; it may be a fairly weak credit history, but if you have no substantive debt, you probably also then have a good listed debt-to-income and debt-to-asset ratio, which can (potentially more than) offset that sparse history when opening a new line of credit. To be not exploitable you either need to be completely invisible to the system or appear so uncreditworthy that no one relying on the system would loan you money at all. (Of course, personal data leaks from credit tracking DBs can be used for identity fraud for things unrelated to securing credit, too, and being visible but not creditworthy doesn't protect you from that at all.)
  - jschwartzi 8y ago
    Can you file for bankruptcy without having any debt to discharge?
  - everdrive 8y ago
    >If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; I was always told this was true, but I waited for years to finally get a credit card or try to apply for a loan. Everyone informed me I had ZERO credit history, despite paying apartment and utility bills for years. I don't have any explanation for why this is true, except that I started my credit from scratch in my late-20s.
  - IncRnd 8y ago
    > If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; None of the three major bureaus track any of this information, so in practical terms they do not factor into a credit history. Income is not collected by itself and placed on a credit report. It's not a weak credit history but non-existent.
Deinos 8y ago
Exactly. As long as you have a SSN and other identification out there, you are a potential target...
- mieseratte 8y ago
  Well, you can't go fully off-the-grid but it makes things a little easier if you're monitoring: * Lack of history makes successful applications less likely * Lack of history makes fraud stand out, any activity is fraud * Since fraud has been identity theft, meaning I have to bitch-and-moan, lack of utilization of credit lends to a stronger story which can help convince folks whereas a serial debtor makes for a less sympathetic and less convincing victim. Additionally, you have less risk of compromise: * That website can't leak my CC details * That skimmer can't capture my CC details * That waiter[0] can't clone my card I went full-cash, even paying for a utilities-included apartment. It also seems to cause me to keep a bit better track of my spending. Easier to overspend when your balance is a number in the cloud somewhere. [0] - Depends on country, e.g. the US frequently has waitstaff take your card to a terminal
  - astrange 8y ago
    Why do you care if someone steals your CC? You don’t have to pay for any of it.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      You still have to catch, verify, and dispute those charges... and let's hope you don't have an auto-draft payment setup. Additionally, it's possible for cards to get locked and that's a PITA to deal with, and god forbid it takes more than a moment to unlock. Hope you have backup cash. Personally, I'd rather deal with the known hassle (cash) vs. the unknown future hassle (card).
    - 2RTZZSro 8y ago
      > You don’t have to pay for any of it. In Europe you have a 24hr window to catch the fraud. Afterwards you assume all liability.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
IncRnd 8y ago
Yes, you are missing the other attack. Someone can take advantage of already existing lines of credit, credits cards, etc. which they presumably will not be able to do if you pay for everything in cash.
- gascan 8y ago
  Obviously, but I guess I don't see how that relates to the article at all.
  - IncRnd 8y ago
    Yes, it is obvious, which is why it was strange that you asked if you missed anything. The answer was yes, you missed what you now agree is obvious. It relates to the article in the following obvious way. A freeze on running a credit report means that someone cannot run your credit report. Without the ability to run your credit report, someone cannot discover your existing accounts, limits, addresses, and balances by running your credit report. You also wrote: Equifax et al don't particularly care if you pay cash, they have some form of record on you either way. This is not correct. Equifax and the other bureaus do not have a record of you on a credit report if you always pay cash and never apply for or run a credit report.

by gascan 8y ago

jessaustin 8y ago

I guess the idea is that if one were "off the grid" enough not to have a phone, one's details wouldn't be in their DB in the first place. That would make one's identity harder to steal, which would cause the thieves to move on to the next victim.

city41 8y ago
But I think you need to be 100% off the grid to accomplish that. Which in today's society is practically impossible. If you're on the grid at all, you're open to attack. Since you have to take that hit anyway, might as well also take advantage of the benefits the grid offers.
drablyechoes 8y ago
The SSN of someone "off the grid" would actually be perfect for doing what is called synthetic identity fraud. If a given SSN has no credit history, you can make up a fictitious person and apply for a credit card with it. The application is probably declined, but a record of this SSN associated to a completely fictitious identity now exists in the credit reporting agencies databases, which makes it more likely that a future credit application will be approved. If there is no other identity using this SSN, then the likelihood of the fraudulent activity being dectected is low. This is why SSNs belonging to elderly people, children/teenagers, and the recently deceased are of relatively higher value for a lot of people out there doing identity fraud.
- jstarfish 8y ago
  Stealing someone else's unused SSN is not synthetic identity creation, it's just fraud. There is a living person associated with that SSN, even if they are off the grid. Synthetic identity fraud involves you making a bunch of inquiries with completely fake SSNs and squatting on them for a few years, maybe bringing them out of cold storage every so often to make a few more inquiries to keep them on the credit-building radar before you ultimately qualify for actual lines of credit and do a bust-out. There is no oblivious meatbag being used as a patsy-- the identities are completely fake, which is what makes them synthetic.
  - drablyechoes 8y ago
    There is more than one way to construct a synthetic identity, but in most cases that I've been aware of, a stolen SSN is used to construct the totally fake identity. Using a completely fake SSN instead of a stolen SSN is what distinguishes "synthetic identity theft" from "synthetic identity fraud". The identities in both cases are completely fake, but only in the identity theft case is the synthetic identity backstopped by a legitimate SSN that belongs to a real person somewhere. If that real person is a child or "off the grid", then the CRAs have no idea who the real person is and their SSN is ripe for creating a synthetic identity that will probably go undetected for years.

convolvatron 8y ago

if you use cash exclusively, then you have no credit to exploit. equifax knows about me, but no one will give me a loan.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> if you use cash exclusively, then you have no credit to exploit If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; it may be a fairly weak credit history, but if you have no substantive debt, you probably also then have a good listed debt-to-income and debt-to-asset ratio, which can (potentially more than) offset that sparse history when opening a new line of credit. To be not exploitable you either need to be completely invisible to the system or appear so uncreditworthy that no one relying on the system would loan you money at all. (Of course, personal data leaks from credit tracking DBs can be used for identity fraud for things unrelated to securing credit, too, and being visible but not creditworthy doesn't protect you from that at all.)
- jschwartzi 8y ago
  Can you file for bankruptcy without having any debt to discharge?
- everdrive 8y ago
  >If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; I was always told this was true, but I waited for years to finally get a credit card or try to apply for a loan. Everyone informed me I had ZERO credit history, despite paying apartment and utility bills for years. I don't have any explanation for why this is true, except that I started my credit from scratch in my late-20s.
- IncRnd 8y ago
  > If you have income and have and pay any recurring bills (even utilities, etc.) you have credit to exploit; None of the three major bureaus track any of this information, so in practical terms they do not factor into a credit history. Income is not collected by itself and placed on a credit report. It's not a weak credit history but non-existent.

Deinos 8y ago

Exactly. As long as you have a SSN and other identification out there, you are a potential target...

mieseratte 8y ago
Well, you can't go fully off-the-grid but it makes things a little easier if you're monitoring: * Lack of history makes successful applications less likely * Lack of history makes fraud stand out, any activity is fraud * Since fraud has been identity theft, meaning I have to bitch-and-moan, lack of utilization of credit lends to a stronger story which can help convince folks whereas a serial debtor makes for a less sympathetic and less convincing victim. Additionally, you have less risk of compromise: * That website can't leak my CC details * That skimmer can't capture my CC details * That waiter[0] can't clone my card I went full-cash, even paying for a utilities-included apartment. It also seems to cause me to keep a bit better track of my spending. Easier to overspend when your balance is a number in the cloud somewhere. [0] - Depends on country, e.g. the US frequently has waitstaff take your card to a terminal
- astrange 8y ago
  Why do you care if someone steals your CC? You don’t have to pay for any of it.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    You still have to catch, verify, and dispute those charges... and let's hope you don't have an auto-draft payment setup. Additionally, it's possible for cards to get locked and that's a PITA to deal with, and god forbid it takes more than a moment to unlock. Hope you have backup cash. Personally, I'd rather deal with the known hassle (cash) vs. the unknown future hassle (card).
  - 2RTZZSro 8y ago
    > You don’t have to pay for any of it. In Europe you have a 24hr window to catch the fraud. Afterwards you assume all liability.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

IncRnd 8y ago

Yes, you are missing the other attack. Someone can take advantage of already existing lines of credit, credits cards, etc. which they presumably will not be able to do if you pay for everything in cash.

gascan 8y ago
Obviously, but I guess I don't see how that relates to the article at all.
- IncRnd 8y ago
  Yes, it is obvious, which is why it was strange that you asked if you missed anything. The answer was yes, you missed what you now agree is obvious. It relates to the article in the following obvious way. A freeze on running a credit report means that someone cannot run your credit report. Without the ability to run your credit report, someone cannot discover your existing accounts, limits, addresses, and balances by running your credit report. You also wrote: Equifax et al don't particularly care if you pay cash, they have some form of record on you either way. This is not correct. Equifax and the other bureaus do not have a record of you on a credit report if you always pay cash and never apply for or run a credit report.