4 ms·

So what you are saying that Apple's core beliefs are location-dependent. Personally, I think it is totally cool to have location-dependent core beliefs. I just

So what you are saying that Apple's core beliefs are location-dependent. Personally, I think it is totally cool to have location-dependent core beliefs. I just think it is a total fan-boism not to acknowledge it.

abc_lisper 9y ago
Umm. No. I don’t wear the same clothes in a desert and a forest. To do so would be foolish. Imposing yourself on others when you have no power to do is not wise. I can keep my house clean but can’t expect everyone in my neighborhood to do so.
- ams6110 9y ago
  But you can choose not to visit the dirty houses. Apple could choose to honor principles and not sell in China. But market share is more important. This is a similar argument we had a couple decades ago about companies doing business in South Africa, which at the time had official racial segregation policies (Apartheid). There was a popular push for divestment and it was fairly successful.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    > Apple could choose to honor principles and not sell in China. But market share is more important. They're a corporation, their sole ethic is "to make money," full stop, that is the only reason Apple exists. To ignore China as a market would cost them millions if not billions of dollars. Tons of businesses with very ethical practices operate in and with China. China's current anti-privacy stances are unfortunate, but if we refuse to do business with them, all we're doing is giving a leg-up to Chinese corporations who don't even pretend to care about user privacy in the form of an insulated market.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      I'm glad you are starting to acknowledge that Apple will sell its users for money. It is just for now it seems to have other venues to get that money. Except in China where it needs to sell its users to the government in order to be able to extract money from that market right now.
    - pvg 9y ago
      They're a corporation, their sole ethic is "to make money," full stop, that is the only reason Apple exists. That's a reductive and inaccurate trope which also seems at odds with and unrelated to the rest of your comment.
- ksk 9y ago
  That sounds to me like you're saying Apples core beliefs are simply whatever they fancy depending on the time of the day.
  - abc_lisper 9y ago
    Hmm. Let's consider the forces involved here: 1. Apple makes their hardware in China. 2. Apple sells their hardware in China. 3. If Apple doesn't comply with China, 1 could be affected, not just 2. 4. Apple cannot move their hardware manufacturing to US (now), without losing their competitive edge, because everybody makes their hardware in China. Do you think if Apple could be privacy oriented in China, it wouldn't? It simply doesn't have the power to do it in China. Don't equate it to Google, FB and numerous others who despite having a chance to be privacy oriented in US, won't. This is like Cantor's infinities. Sure they are all infinities. But they aren't the same.
    - ksk 9y ago
      To unpack your #1 statement. Lets say that Apple makes their hardware and then ships it out of China. China makes money, gets some jobs out of it, some tech knowhow etc. China has no reason to stop that. Now, apple's desire to sell devices in china that comply with chinese laws (which potentially compromise user privacy) is a separate issue altogether. Business wise, I don't think they can afford to avoid china altogether. So maybe they can simply say that "they're doing the best they can" and take the PR hit.
0xCMP 9y ago
It's not a location dependent core belief. The Chinese laws make it this way. Apple is not a sovereign government with the right to do as they please. They operate in the rules and under the same threat of force everyone else does in every nation they operate. That we live in an area of the world where you can choose to make the decisions they do without serious repercussions should make you pause and think about how important the checks we have are, because in China there aren't many ways to get around the problem above besides ignoring the largest developing market in the world.
- notyourday 9y ago
  Of course it is a location dependent core belief. And, as I have pointed out above, it is perfectly ok to have a location dependent core belief as long as we stop pretending it is not. Apple wants Chinese market and it wants Chinese labor. If to do that it needs to sacrifice its principals, it is willing to do so. IBM did that before with Nazi Germany. Other companies did it before with South Africa. P.S. It is very amusing to watch the blind apple fanboi-sm on HN.
  - millstone 9y ago
    Apple's #1 principle is to make the best product in the market. That's what they've done: the alternatives to iPhones in China are much worse in terms of privacy. Apple would not be helping anyone by going to the mat on this.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      You should try to substitute Apple for IBM, iPhones for tabulation machines and China for Nazi Germany. It would be a fine mental exercise just to see not how far Apple fans would be willing to go to justify Apple's behavior but to see what kind of mental gymnastics they would be willing to do just to avoid saying "Apple will sell its users if it means keeping/gaining the market"
      - millstone 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
simonh 9y ago
Providing your users with the maximum freedom, privacy and security possible under the law is a reasonable and ethical position to take, especially if you believe your products provide the best security and privacy on the market and withdrawing them would leave your customers with only worse options available. If you honestly believed that to be true, how could you justify withdrawing from that market on ethical grounds?
ddalex 8y ago
But this is not about core-beliefs, but complying with the law.

abc_lisper 9y ago

Umm. No. I don’t wear the same clothes in a desert and a forest. To do so would be foolish. Imposing yourself on others when you have no power to do is not wise. I can keep my house clean but can’t expect everyone in my neighborhood to do so.

ams6110 9y ago
But you can choose not to visit the dirty houses. Apple could choose to honor principles and not sell in China. But market share is more important. This is a similar argument we had a couple decades ago about companies doing business in South Africa, which at the time had official racial segregation policies (Apartheid). There was a popular push for divestment and it was fairly successful.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  > Apple could choose to honor principles and not sell in China. But market share is more important. They're a corporation, their sole ethic is "to make money," full stop, that is the only reason Apple exists. To ignore China as a market would cost them millions if not billions of dollars. Tons of businesses with very ethical practices operate in and with China. China's current anti-privacy stances are unfortunate, but if we refuse to do business with them, all we're doing is giving a leg-up to Chinese corporations who don't even pretend to care about user privacy in the form of an insulated market.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    I'm glad you are starting to acknowledge that Apple will sell its users for money. It is just for now it seems to have other venues to get that money. Except in China where it needs to sell its users to the government in order to be able to extract money from that market right now.
  - pvg 9y ago
    They're a corporation, their sole ethic is "to make money," full stop, that is the only reason Apple exists. That's a reductive and inaccurate trope which also seems at odds with and unrelated to the rest of your comment.
ksk 9y ago
That sounds to me like you're saying Apples core beliefs are simply whatever they fancy depending on the time of the day.
- abc_lisper 9y ago
  Hmm. Let's consider the forces involved here: 1. Apple makes their hardware in China. 2. Apple sells their hardware in China. 3. If Apple doesn't comply with China, 1 could be affected, not just 2. 4. Apple cannot move their hardware manufacturing to US (now), without losing their competitive edge, because everybody makes their hardware in China. Do you think if Apple could be privacy oriented in China, it wouldn't? It simply doesn't have the power to do it in China. Don't equate it to Google, FB and numerous others who despite having a chance to be privacy oriented in US, won't. This is like Cantor's infinities. Sure they are all infinities. But they aren't the same.
  - ksk 9y ago
    To unpack your #1 statement. Lets say that Apple makes their hardware and then ships it out of China. China makes money, gets some jobs out of it, some tech knowhow etc. China has no reason to stop that. Now, apple's desire to sell devices in china that comply with chinese laws (which potentially compromise user privacy) is a separate issue altogether. Business wise, I don't think they can afford to avoid china altogether. So maybe they can simply say that "they're doing the best they can" and take the PR hit.

0xCMP 9y ago

It's not a location dependent core belief. The Chinese laws make it this way. Apple is not a sovereign government with the right to do as they please. They operate in the rules and under the same threat of force everyone else does in every nation they operate. That we live in an area of the world where you can choose to make the decisions they do without serious repercussions should make you pause and think about how important the checks we have are, because in China there aren't many ways to get around the problem above besides ignoring the largest developing market in the world.

notyourday 9y ago
Of course it is a location dependent core belief. And, as I have pointed out above, it is perfectly ok to have a location dependent core belief as long as we stop pretending it is not. Apple wants Chinese market and it wants Chinese labor. If to do that it needs to sacrifice its principals, it is willing to do so. IBM did that before with Nazi Germany. Other companies did it before with South Africa. P.S. It is very amusing to watch the blind apple fanboi-sm on HN.
- millstone 9y ago
  Apple's #1 principle is to make the best product in the market. That's what they've done: the alternatives to iPhones in China are much worse in terms of privacy. Apple would not be helping anyone by going to the mat on this.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    You should try to substitute Apple for IBM, iPhones for tabulation machines and China for Nazi Germany. It would be a fine mental exercise just to see not how far Apple fans would be willing to go to justify Apple's behavior but to see what kind of mental gymnastics they would be willing to do just to avoid saying "Apple will sell its users if it means keeping/gaining the market"
    - millstone 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

simonh 9y ago

Providing your users with the maximum freedom, privacy and security possible under the law is a reasonable and ethical position to take, especially if you believe your products provide the best security and privacy on the market and withdrawing them would leave your customers with only worse options available. If you honestly believed that to be true, how could you justify withdrawing from that market on ethical grounds?

ddalex 8y ago

But this is not about core-beliefs, but complying with the law.