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No way. Europe's Silicon Valley will establish in Eastern Europe, where living is cheaper and governments are more willing to ease up on regulations to accomoda

No way. Europe's Silicon Valley will establish in Eastern Europe, where living is cheaper and governments are more willing to ease up on regulations to accomodate the flexible start-up employer-employee relationships. Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn, those are the spots to keep an eye out for.

mstade 8y ago
Speaking of Estonia, I was at their embassy in Stockholm last fall and they were pushing hard for Tallinn as the next European capital of tech. Nearly every conversation you had with them, regardless of topic, would somehow gravitate toward how great Estonia is to set up a tech shop. Whether because of cheap real estate or the quality of their work force, or the prevalence of craft beer – it was all just a great place to be. Frankly I kind of bought it. I'm going to visit this summer.
- saintPirelli 8y ago
  I have vague plans to visit too. And keep in mind Estonia already has produced a success story in tech: Skype.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- charlesdm 8y ago
  I know a guy who lives there (he moved there, not a native), doing consulting and working remotely. The advantage partially comes from the fact that developers are paid significantly above average wages, i.e. the average salary for most people is low (like 400 to 600 euros a month pre tax) yet developers take home 1,500 / 2,000 / 4,000 euros per month. Cost of living + taxes are low as well.
- piva00 8y ago
  Honestly speaking, Tallinn is a boring place. Might be good for business but I don't see it as attractive for people willing to move, maybe in the short-term for a job but it's not a place I'd see many settling in. Go visit it anyway, that's, of course, just my impression, but even living in Stockholm (a place I consider a bit boring for my standards of big city life) I found Tallinn very very dull.
  - gaius 8y ago
    Tallinn is massively more fun than Helsinki
    - piva00 8y ago
      Haha, that I really can't disagree with.
  - mstade 8y ago
    To each their own! :o) Having lived several years in London, and experienced plenty more cities including NYC and San Francisco I’m more than ready for boring. Indeed, this is why my current home town is Stockholm because I kind of agree with you – it’s a little bit boring and very safe, and I love it!
fileeditview 8y ago
I really think none of these places (including Berlin) will be the Silicon Valley of Europe just because the salaries are too low. Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?
- saintPirelli 8y ago
  Better schools for your kids, safer cities, better public transport, more and better maintained parks, better local produce. There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that.
  - Jommi 8y ago
    You really think Eastern Europe ranks highly in those values?
    - keiferski 8y ago
      Compared to most American cities? Absolutely. The quality of life in Warsaw on $1,500 a month is vastly better than ~$4,000 a month in SV.
    - pavelludiq 8y ago
      Can't speak for the others, but here's Sofia's situation(at least from my experience): - don't know about schools, but kindergardens are a privilege you'll be fighting for - it's fairly safe, obviously exercise common sense - the metro is great, but it only covers part of the city, the rest of public transit ranges from ok to abysmal, but if you pay for a year, it's cheap as hell too. But I've certainly had no need for a car, so it's doable if inconvenient at times. - cycling infrastructure is horrible, and there isn't enough of it, but it's there at least and I don't think it's stopped anyone who wants to cycle - Parks are fine, plus there's a mountain here, so if you need green, you got it. Other factors you might want to consider: - air quality and traffic are horrible, especially in winter - night life is fine - you can find good food, and you can find cheap food, and if you look, you can find good cheap food. - gov healthcare is bad, but if you're in tech, your employer might give you additional private insurance, so it's not something I've had to worry about. - taxes are low - alcohol is cheap and there are no ridiculous "no sale of alcohol on Sundays or after 10pm" rules some western countries seem to like :). - tech scene is active so if you want to hang around with techies, you won't be bored - cheap marginal space is very much available if you don't want/need a glossy hip office in a nice location. Personally I love it and it's main advantage is that although it's much more expensive than the rest of the country, it's still cheap as hell. I don't make much but I save a lot, I could probably afford to work only every other year if I was frugal enough. I did consider moving for the north-west a while ago, but I did the math and...yeah, the up in purchasing power would be there, but not enough to justify leaving. I still might do it just for the novelty and experience at some point.
rurban 8y ago
They especially have much better talent, compared to the Berlin ruby/php/javascript hipsters.
bitL 8y ago
The closest to Silicon Valley is London, however salaries there are pitiful. By the time Europe has any attempt to actually create an extremely well-paid bleeding-edge tech hub, that tech will be already in consolidation phase... Dream on.
- teddyuk 8y ago
  contractor salaries in london are sweet!
  - passiveincomelg 8y ago
    Same in Berlin.
- antihero 8y ago
  For a fairly experienced developer in London you're looking at £60,000-£100,000 salary, which is $80,000-$135,000. Maybe not quite Silicon Valley but a far cry from pitiful. London is expensive to live, but nowhere near SV as far as I know.
jk2323 8y ago
"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn" Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture. Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.
- jk2323 8y ago
  Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender. Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.
  - V-2 8y ago
    Your point about "language" isn't convincing to me, as everyone speaks English in the IT sector anyway. And what sort of "xenophobia" are you referring to?
    - jk2323 8y ago
      Many of the East European countries are not very open and friendly to foreigners. Speak Poland, Czech Republic for example. Travel there and see for yourself. Sometimes it is country specific (e.g. Russians and Germans in Poland) or Ethnic specific (Say Hungary and Poland) or sometimes they hate everyone (speak Czech republic). Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy. People in Romania seem to be very friendly. GDP growth higher than China but not sure I see a basis for a silicon valley there. I don't know Bulgaria.
      - V-2 8y ago
        > Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy. The condescending tone is uncalled for. As for the advice, I don't really need to travel as I've lived in Poland for my whole life (minus a few years spent abroad / in the UK). I've also been to several countries in the region, and yes I have indeed brought quite a few "foreign looking" friends with me, including an Italian girlfriend. I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you on such a trip - assuming you're speaking from first-hand experience, rather than just propagating negative stereotypes - but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations.
danielam 8y ago
I usually don't like phrases like "Europe's Silicon Valley" or "Venice of the North". As much as they can be informative in some respects, such comparisons obscure and brush over the specificities of the things in question. It makes more sense to talk about the emergence of a strong tech sector in general terms and as one component of a healthy economy. Having said that, there is reason to think that the region in question will become Europe's most dynamic and technologically powerful, in particular Poland, because of a number of coinciding factors, such as entrepreneurial spirit lacking in Germany and west of it, geopolitical necessity and historical precedent. The geopolitical angle is quite interesting. Poland and the other countries sandwiched between Germany and Russia are situated on a geopolitical fault line that demands that these countries cooperate out of mutual interest. Economic strength becomes one pillar in maintaining not just a materially comfortable existence but a matter of existential importance and of independence. That's a pretty strong motivator given the history of the region. On top of that, the United States has a geopolitical interest in the region's strength. We know from analogous cases that American interest of this kind has usually contributed positively to regional and thus economic strength. And from recent developments vis-a-vis the Three Seas Initiative, we are witnessing a formal recognition of the necessity of regional strength by the countries in that region. In fact, the recent brouhaha in the European Commission over Poland is, when interpreted synoptically, a telltale sign of the country's rising importance.

mstade 8y ago

Speaking of Estonia, I was at their embassy in Stockholm last fall and they were pushing hard for Tallinn as the next European capital of tech. Nearly every conversation you had with them, regardless of topic, would somehow gravitate toward how great Estonia is to set up a tech shop. Whether because of cheap real estate or the quality of their work force, or the prevalence of craft beer – it was all just a great place to be. Frankly I kind of bought it. I'm going to visit this summer.

saintPirelli 8y ago
I have vague plans to visit too. And keep in mind Estonia already has produced a success story in tech: Skype.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
charlesdm 8y ago
I know a guy who lives there (he moved there, not a native), doing consulting and working remotely. The advantage partially comes from the fact that developers are paid significantly above average wages, i.e. the average salary for most people is low (like 400 to 600 euros a month pre tax) yet developers take home 1,500 / 2,000 / 4,000 euros per month. Cost of living + taxes are low as well.
piva00 8y ago
Honestly speaking, Tallinn is a boring place. Might be good for business but I don't see it as attractive for people willing to move, maybe in the short-term for a job but it's not a place I'd see many settling in. Go visit it anyway, that's, of course, just my impression, but even living in Stockholm (a place I consider a bit boring for my standards of big city life) I found Tallinn very very dull.
- gaius 8y ago
  Tallinn is massively more fun than Helsinki
  - piva00 8y ago
    Haha, that I really can't disagree with.
- mstade 8y ago
  To each their own! :o) Having lived several years in London, and experienced plenty more cities including NYC and San Francisco I’m more than ready for boring. Indeed, this is why my current home town is Stockholm because I kind of agree with you – it’s a little bit boring and very safe, and I love it!

fileeditview 8y ago

I really think none of these places (including Berlin) will be the Silicon Valley of Europe just because the salaries are too low. Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?

saintPirelli 8y ago
Better schools for your kids, safer cities, better public transport, more and better maintained parks, better local produce. There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that.
- Jommi 8y ago
  You really think Eastern Europe ranks highly in those values?
  - keiferski 8y ago
    Compared to most American cities? Absolutely. The quality of life in Warsaw on $1,500 a month is vastly better than ~$4,000 a month in SV.
  - pavelludiq 8y ago
    Can't speak for the others, but here's Sofia's situation(at least from my experience): - don't know about schools, but kindergardens are a privilege you'll be fighting for - it's fairly safe, obviously exercise common sense - the metro is great, but it only covers part of the city, the rest of public transit ranges from ok to abysmal, but if you pay for a year, it's cheap as hell too. But I've certainly had no need for a car, so it's doable if inconvenient at times. - cycling infrastructure is horrible, and there isn't enough of it, but it's there at least and I don't think it's stopped anyone who wants to cycle - Parks are fine, plus there's a mountain here, so if you need green, you got it. Other factors you might want to consider: - air quality and traffic are horrible, especially in winter - night life is fine - you can find good food, and you can find cheap food, and if you look, you can find good cheap food. - gov healthcare is bad, but if you're in tech, your employer might give you additional private insurance, so it's not something I've had to worry about. - taxes are low - alcohol is cheap and there are no ridiculous "no sale of alcohol on Sundays or after 10pm" rules some western countries seem to like :). - tech scene is active so if you want to hang around with techies, you won't be bored - cheap marginal space is very much available if you don't want/need a glossy hip office in a nice location. Personally I love it and it's main advantage is that although it's much more expensive than the rest of the country, it's still cheap as hell. I don't make much but I save a lot, I could probably afford to work only every other year if I was frugal enough. I did consider moving for the north-west a while ago, but I did the math and...yeah, the up in purchasing power would be there, but not enough to justify leaving. I still might do it just for the novelty and experience at some point.

rurban 8y ago

They especially have much better talent, compared to the Berlin ruby/php/javascript hipsters.

bitL 8y ago

The closest to Silicon Valley is London, however salaries there are pitiful. By the time Europe has any attempt to actually create an extremely well-paid bleeding-edge tech hub, that tech will be already in consolidation phase... Dream on.

teddyuk 8y ago
contractor salaries in london are sweet!
- passiveincomelg 8y ago
  Same in Berlin.
antihero 8y ago
For a fairly experienced developer in London you're looking at £60,000-£100,000 salary, which is $80,000-$135,000. Maybe not quite Silicon Valley but a far cry from pitiful. London is expensive to live, but nowhere near SV as far as I know.

jk2323 8y ago

"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn" Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture. Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.

jk2323 8y ago
Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender. Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.
- V-2 8y ago
  Your point about "language" isn't convincing to me, as everyone speaks English in the IT sector anyway. And what sort of "xenophobia" are you referring to?
  - jk2323 8y ago
    Many of the East European countries are not very open and friendly to foreigners. Speak Poland, Czech Republic for example. Travel there and see for yourself. Sometimes it is country specific (e.g. Russians and Germans in Poland) or Ethnic specific (Say Hungary and Poland) or sometimes they hate everyone (speak Czech republic). Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy. People in Romania seem to be very friendly. GDP growth higher than China but not sure I see a basis for a silicon valley there. I don't know Bulgaria.
    - V-2 8y ago
      > Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy. The condescending tone is uncalled for. As for the advice, I don't really need to travel as I've lived in Poland for my whole life (minus a few years spent abroad / in the UK). I've also been to several countries in the region, and yes I have indeed brought quite a few "foreign looking" friends with me, including an Italian girlfriend. I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you on such a trip - assuming you're speaking from first-hand experience, rather than just propagating negative stereotypes - but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations.

danielam 8y ago

I usually don't like phrases like "Europe's Silicon Valley" or "Venice of the North". As much as they can be informative in some respects, such comparisons obscure and brush over the specificities of the things in question. It makes more sense to talk about the emergence of a strong tech sector in general terms and as one component of a healthy economy. Having said that, there is reason to think that the region in question will become Europe's most dynamic and technologically powerful, in particular Poland, because of a number of coinciding factors, such as entrepreneurial spirit lacking in Germany and west of it, geopolitical necessity and historical precedent. The geopolitical angle is quite interesting. Poland and the other countries sandwiched between Germany and Russia are situated on a geopolitical fault line that demands that these countries cooperate out of mutual interest. Economic strength becomes one pillar in maintaining not just a materially comfortable existence but a matter of existential importance and of independence. That's a pretty strong motivator given the history of the region. On top of that, the United States has a geopolitical interest in the region's strength. We know from analogous cases that American interest of this kind has usually contributed positively to regional and thus economic strength. And from recent developments vis-a-vis the Three Seas Initiative, we are witnessing a formal recognition of the necessity of regional strength by the countries in that region. In fact, the recent brouhaha in the European Commission over Poland is, when interpreted synoptically, a telltale sign of the country's rising importance.