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Ten years ago, when we launched the first Android phone—the T-Mobile G1—it was with a simple but bold idea: to build a mobile platform that’s free and open to e

by ISL 9y ago

Ten years ago, when we launched the first Android phone—the T-Mobile G1—it was with a simple but bold idea: to build a mobile platform that’s free and open to everyone. To what quantitative fraction is Android still free and open (as in speech), and how much of it has been moved into closed-source containers?

kuschku 9y ago
Almost all of it is closed. Since the G1, the following parts are just some of the many that were removed from the open project and replaced with proprietary ones: Launcher, Dialer (the actual phone app), Contacts, Calendar, Email, on-device Search (last open in 2.3.7), and many more. Everything that the user touches or sees is closed source.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  All of those apps exist in AOSP and have many open source equivalents not developed by Google. The platform that those apps run on is just as open now as it was in the G1 days.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Oh? I can compile all these apps, exactly as they are on the Pixel 2, myself? I'd love to see that source. The versions in AOSP are heavily cut down on functionality and barely even work. Im the days of the G1, the actual Google Talk and Google Search apps were open, the Google Books app was open too! That was the Android we bought into: one where a default install was entirely open, and living without any closed source apps was easily possible. Today, that's long gone. Play Services here, SafetyNet there, Google®™© apps in the middle.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      The Pixel 2 is not an AOSP device, just like the Galaxy 8 is not an AOSP device. Why would you think you get the source for all the third party apps? > Im the days of the G1, the actual Google Talk and Google Search apps were open, the Google Books app was open too! Those apps as they were are still open (the Google Talk app was/is actually a multiprotocol messenger), though I don't remember a Google Books in AOSP. Even better, there are now superior equivalents to all of these that are also open source.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        Because the G1 was an AOSP device, and so was the Nexus One, and so was the Nexus S. I was barely in middle school when the G1 came out, I saw Android morph from the promised solution as entirely open source platform to what we have today, where the platform and base apps are all proprietary.
        lern_too_spel 9y ago
        No, none of those were AOSP devices either. They all included Android Market and Gmail, as the most obvious examples. The platform remains entirely open. That's how Chinese people are able to use Android even though Google does not do business there. You confuse the platform with the apps and services that run on it.
        kuschku 9y ago
        > The platform remains entirely open. That’d be an argument, if Google removed all of those APIs that were in AOSP and forced people to use their proprietary solutions. If you want to do WiFi Geolocation, you now need to use Google Play Services. If you want to use shared library of openssl, you now need to use Google Play Services. If you want to use background notifications, you now need to use Google Play Services. This is an official Google diagram describing which parts of Android are open source, and which are proprietary: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/playservicesdiagram2.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/plays... That was 2013, since it’s gotten even far worse. This was 2016: https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/android-struktur.jpg https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/android-st... Since then, it’s gotten even worse. By now you can’t access the stepcounter, or movement data, or most raw sensors, you can’t run in the background, you can’t access location (except for raw GPS, not even A-GPS) without proprietary libraries. Hell, you can’t even use the latest OpenGL without proprietary libraries.
        lern_too_spel 9y ago
        > If you want to do WiFi Geolocation, you now need to use Google Play Services. This was always using Google's proprietary data, even in the G1 days. They split it out into Play Services, so Chinese phones using another provider would be possible. > If you want to use background notifications, you now need to use Google Play Services. Background notifications weren't even possible on the G1 when it launched. When background notifications were first made available, they used a Google service and were never part of AOSP for that reason. Chinese phones use other push services inside the firewall. > If you want to use shared library of openssl, you now need to use Google Play Services. This is because Google now updates that library for security. If someone else updates the shared library (because you're in China, for example), you can call that version. Or you can just bundle the library in your app. > By now you can’t access the stepcounter, or movement data. None of those existed on the G1 and are simply sensor fusion implementations on the open sensor APIs. > Hell, you can’t even use the latest OpenGL without proprietary libraries. Yes, you can. https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/graphics/opengl https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/graphics/opengl You need to understand the difference between the platform and the services that Google provides on top of it.
  - Aaargh20318 9y ago
    > The platform that those apps run on is just as open now as it was in the G1 days. It never was open. Sure, Google ups a bunch of source code to AOSP after the release of a new version but there is no actual OSS-style development going on. All development is behind closed doors, only done by Google and the public cannot contribute. I cannot check out the latest development version of Android from github, fix some issues and send a PR. It's all a one-way street.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      Agreed. It might have made sense to do development behind closed doors in the early days with the mobile patent war raging, but now that most advances are in apps and services on top of the platform instead of in the platform itself and now that Apple is way behind in features and usability and has no way to catch up, they might as well switch to the Chrome development model, or at least the Fuchsia model where the roadmap and design discussion is closed but the code is entirely open.
      - Aaargh20318 9y ago
        > Apple is way behind in features and usability LOLWUT ? Apple is years ahead of Android.
        lern_too_spel 8y ago
        My team of ten went from majority iPhone to all but two on Pixels with the last two saying they will switch on their next upgrade. It's not due to cost — the iPhone X or the Pixel costs nothing to the employee. It's due to sheer usability.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Also since Android 7 they started locking down what was possible to access with the NDK, any attempt to link against anything not listed as official NDK API will terminate the application. With Android P they are doing the same to Java apps that make use of reflection to access non-public APIs or work around bugs due to lack of updates.
wilsonnb 9y ago
To me, Android is definitely not FOSS but it is still open in the sense that matters. As far as I know, any company can pay to use it on their phones. I think members of the Open Handset Alliance don't have to pay. I'm not sure what it takes to join that, though. Anyone can download Android Studio on any major operating system and make an android app. There are no limitations as to what features those apps can use. There is no fee to put an app in the app store. People can still sideload their own apps.

by ISL 9y ago

kuschku 9y ago

Almost all of it is closed. Since the G1, the following parts are just some of the many that were removed from the open project and replaced with proprietary ones: Launcher, Dialer (the actual phone app), Contacts, Calendar, Email, on-device Search (last open in 2.3.7), and many more. Everything that the user touches or sees is closed source.

lern_too_spel 9y ago
All of those apps exist in AOSP and have many open source equivalents not developed by Google. The platform that those apps run on is just as open now as it was in the G1 days.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Oh? I can compile all these apps, exactly as they are on the Pixel 2, myself? I'd love to see that source. The versions in AOSP are heavily cut down on functionality and barely even work. Im the days of the G1, the actual Google Talk and Google Search apps were open, the Google Books app was open too! That was the Android we bought into: one where a default install was entirely open, and living without any closed source apps was easily possible. Today, that's long gone. Play Services here, SafetyNet there, Google®™© apps in the middle.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    The Pixel 2 is not an AOSP device, just like the Galaxy 8 is not an AOSP device. Why would you think you get the source for all the third party apps? > Im the days of the G1, the actual Google Talk and Google Search apps were open, the Google Books app was open too! Those apps as they were are still open (the Google Talk app was/is actually a multiprotocol messenger), though I don't remember a Google Books in AOSP. Even better, there are now superior equivalents to all of these that are also open source.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      Because the G1 was an AOSP device, and so was the Nexus One, and so was the Nexus S. I was barely in middle school when the G1 came out, I saw Android morph from the promised solution as entirely open source platform to what we have today, where the platform and base apps are all proprietary.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        No, none of those were AOSP devices either. They all included Android Market and Gmail, as the most obvious examples. The platform remains entirely open. That's how Chinese people are able to use Android even though Google does not do business there. You confuse the platform with the apps and services that run on it.
        kuschku 9y ago
        > The platform remains entirely open. That’d be an argument, if Google removed all of those APIs that were in AOSP and forced people to use their proprietary solutions. If you want to do WiFi Geolocation, you now need to use Google Play Services. If you want to use shared library of openssl, you now need to use Google Play Services. If you want to use background notifications, you now need to use Google Play Services. This is an official Google diagram describing which parts of Android are open source, and which are proprietary: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/playservicesdiagram2.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/plays... That was 2013, since it’s gotten even far worse. This was 2016: https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/android-struktur.jpg https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/android-st... Since then, it’s gotten even worse. By now you can’t access the stepcounter, or movement data, or most raw sensors, you can’t run in the background, you can’t access location (except for raw GPS, not even A-GPS) without proprietary libraries. Hell, you can’t even use the latest OpenGL without proprietary libraries.
        lern_too_spel 9y ago
        > If you want to do WiFi Geolocation, you now need to use Google Play Services. This was always using Google's proprietary data, even in the G1 days. They split it out into Play Services, so Chinese phones using another provider would be possible. > If you want to use background notifications, you now need to use Google Play Services. Background notifications weren't even possible on the G1 when it launched. When background notifications were first made available, they used a Google service and were never part of AOSP for that reason. Chinese phones use other push services inside the firewall. > If you want to use shared library of openssl, you now need to use Google Play Services. This is because Google now updates that library for security. If someone else updates the shared library (because you're in China, for example), you can call that version. Or you can just bundle the library in your app. > By now you can’t access the stepcounter, or movement data. None of those existed on the G1 and are simply sensor fusion implementations on the open sensor APIs. > Hell, you can’t even use the latest OpenGL without proprietary libraries. Yes, you can. https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/graphics/opengl https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/graphics/opengl You need to understand the difference between the platform and the services that Google provides on top of it.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > The platform that those apps run on is just as open now as it was in the G1 days. It never was open. Sure, Google ups a bunch of source code to AOSP after the release of a new version but there is no actual OSS-style development going on. All development is behind closed doors, only done by Google and the public cannot contribute. I cannot check out the latest development version of Android from github, fix some issues and send a PR. It's all a one-way street.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    Agreed. It might have made sense to do development behind closed doors in the early days with the mobile patent war raging, but now that most advances are in apps and services on top of the platform instead of in the platform itself and now that Apple is way behind in features and usability and has no way to catch up, they might as well switch to the Chrome development model, or at least the Fuchsia model where the roadmap and design discussion is closed but the code is entirely open.
    - Aaargh20318 9y ago
      > Apple is way behind in features and usability LOLWUT ? Apple is years ahead of Android.
      - lern_too_spel 8y ago
        My team of ten went from majority iPhone to all but two on Pixels with the last two saying they will switch on their next upgrade. It's not due to cost — the iPhone X or the Pixel costs nothing to the employee. It's due to sheer usability.
pjmlp 9y ago
Also since Android 7 they started locking down what was possible to access with the NDK, any attempt to link against anything not listed as official NDK API will terminate the application. With Android P they are doing the same to Java apps that make use of reflection to access non-public APIs or work around bugs due to lack of updates.

wilsonnb 9y ago

To me, Android is definitely not FOSS but it is still open in the sense that matters. As far as I know, any company can pay to use it on their phones. I think members of the Open Handset Alliance don't have to pay. I'm not sure what it takes to join that, though. Anyone can download Android Studio on any major operating system and make an android app. There are no limitations as to what features those apps can use. There is no fee to put an app in the app store. People can still sideload their own apps.