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Maybe I wasn't clear: my point was not about mandating vaccination. My point is simply that it matters what we all say about the ethics of vaccination. There

Maybe I wasn't clear: my point was not about mandating vaccination. My point is simply that it matters what we all say about the ethics of vaccination. There has been much muddying of the water by unscientific voices, and to counter that public policy should be crystal clear: vaccines are safe, every child should be vaccinated, and to do otherwise is unethical. If you want to do otherwise you will always have the freedom to do so. But according to the latest science, there is no publicly acceptable argument for going unvaccinated or for advocating against vaccinations.

CWuestefeld 16y ago
vaccines are safe, every child should be vaccinated, and to do otherwise is unethical I have a friend whose son is mentally handicapped, apparently [1] because, as an infant, his vaccination was both (a) done incorrectly and (b) massively overdosed. I say this not to advocate against vaccination, but to remind that no medical procedure is without risk. Accidents happen, and there are also individual circumstances that would make some treatments unadvisable. A statement as categorical and sweeping as yours is taking things too far. [1] Nobody will ever be able to prove it, but the evidence is convincing to me. UPDATE: forgot to mention about the (very small) inherent danger in using attenuated virus vaccines, such as the OPV (Sabin, not Salk) polio virus. It seems that in this case, it mutates and reverts to the virulent, paralyzing form in 1 / 750,000 cases [2]. This is tiny, but you can't categorically call it safe. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Iatrogenic_.28vaccine-induced.29_polio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Iatrogenic_.28vac...
- gte910h 16y ago
  While I feel for your friend, polio hasn't been given for a generation and a half in the US, so isn't really an apropos topic of discussion. (And is one of the last oral vaccines, which usually use attenuated viruses instead of dead ones). Any time you stick a needle into someone, you risk giving them a brain embolism. Life is risk. However vaccines are CLEARLY in the make you much safer part of risk, like seatbelts and washing your hands.
- stevejohnson 16y ago
  You are arguing against scientific data using anecdotal and unproven evidence. Even if your near-baseless statement of risk is accurate, it is clear that a non-vaccinated world is much riskier for children than a vaccinated one.
  - CWuestefeld 16y ago
    You are arguing against scientific data using anecdotal and unproven evidence. In one case, yes, but the danger of malpractice is certainly well known. In my other case (iatrogenic polio), it's a very well documented effect. Virtually all polio in the USA since the 'late 60s (give or take) has been the result of this. But in both cases, the risk is vanishingly small. My point was that a statement like "stop whining: it's perfectly safe" is not correct. In the end, such hyperbole only gives the tinfoil hat crowd a toehold. And again, using the polio example, an understanding of the tiny risk of iatrogenic polio can help those at particular risk due to immune problems to avoid what is a non-trivial danger for them.
    - trunnell 16y ago
      I'm sorry to hear about your friend's son. And you're right, the risk of an ill effect is non-zero. That doesn't mean it's not safe, though. If our definition of safe means absolutely zero risk, then almost nothing is safe. Relative to most medical procedures, vaccines are incredibly safe. I'm going to continue telling everyone I know that they should vaccinate their children because that position is supported by the best available science, and because the alternative is definitely not safe.
      - CWuestefeld 16y ago
        Now that, I agree with.

CWuestefeld 16y ago

vaccines are safe, every child should be vaccinated, and to do otherwise is unethical I have a friend whose son is mentally handicapped, apparently [1] because, as an infant, his vaccination was both (a) done incorrectly and (b) massively overdosed. I say this not to advocate against vaccination, but to remind that no medical procedure is without risk. Accidents happen, and there are also individual circumstances that would make some treatments unadvisable. A statement as categorical and sweeping as yours is taking things too far. [1] Nobody will ever be able to prove it, but the evidence is convincing to me. UPDATE: forgot to mention about the (very small) inherent danger in using attenuated virus vaccines, such as the OPV (Sabin, not Salk) polio virus. It seems that in this case, it mutates and reverts to the virulent, paralyzing form in 1 / 750,000 cases [2]. This is tiny, but you can't categorically call it safe. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Iatrogenic_.28vaccine-induced.29_polio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Iatrogenic_.28vac...

gte910h 16y ago
While I feel for your friend, polio hasn't been given for a generation and a half in the US, so isn't really an apropos topic of discussion. (And is one of the last oral vaccines, which usually use attenuated viruses instead of dead ones). Any time you stick a needle into someone, you risk giving them a brain embolism. Life is risk. However vaccines are CLEARLY in the make you much safer part of risk, like seatbelts and washing your hands.
stevejohnson 16y ago
You are arguing against scientific data using anecdotal and unproven evidence. Even if your near-baseless statement of risk is accurate, it is clear that a non-vaccinated world is much riskier for children than a vaccinated one.
- CWuestefeld 16y ago
  You are arguing against scientific data using anecdotal and unproven evidence. In one case, yes, but the danger of malpractice is certainly well known. In my other case (iatrogenic polio), it's a very well documented effect. Virtually all polio in the USA since the 'late 60s (give or take) has been the result of this. But in both cases, the risk is vanishingly small. My point was that a statement like "stop whining: it's perfectly safe" is not correct. In the end, such hyperbole only gives the tinfoil hat crowd a toehold. And again, using the polio example, an understanding of the tiny risk of iatrogenic polio can help those at particular risk due to immune problems to avoid what is a non-trivial danger for them.
  - trunnell 16y ago
    I'm sorry to hear about your friend's son. And you're right, the risk of an ill effect is non-zero. That doesn't mean it's not safe, though. If our definition of safe means absolutely zero risk, then almost nothing is safe. Relative to most medical procedures, vaccines are incredibly safe. I'm going to continue telling everyone I know that they should vaccinate their children because that position is supported by the best available science, and because the alternative is definitely not safe.
    - CWuestefeld 16y ago
      Now that, I agree with.