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And places like China are now seeing the same kind of untrammeled progress, as their economy completely explodes under political conditions that 'the west' woul

And places like China are now seeing the same kind of untrammeled progress, as their economy completely explodes under political conditions that 'the west' would consider counter to what they would consider correct/right/whatever. Now to be clear, I'm obviously not advocating human rights violations, and strict governmental control ... I'm only pointing out that things like 'freedom of speech', while awesome and right IMO _may_ not exactly be the root cause of this age of prosperity.

wilsonnb 8y ago
Indeed. The next 10 to 15 years in China will either further set an example that you don't need American/European democratic ideals in order for economic prosperity and a good life for your citizens, or it will go a long way to disproving the idea that those can be separated. With several eastern European countries trending in an authoritarian direction (and Turkey pretty far along that path already) I am worried about the effect that Chinese prosperity without democratic ideals will have.
- kristianc 8y ago
  Legatum rates China's prosperity at 90th in the world, alongside El Salvador and Nepal, precisely because the lack of personal freedom and environmental degradation act as a counterbalance against China's robust economy. You can question the methodology, but then you have to make an argument as to why Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Denmark, the US and other mature social democracies which routinely top these rankings are not good places to live. Very few citizens of those countries would choose to live in Xi's China instead.
  - wilsonnb 8y ago
    I don't have to make an argument as to why Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Denmark, and the US are not good places to live. They are good places to live. That has nothing to do with whether or not China is a good place to live. I only have to make the argument that personal freedom is not as important as economic prosperity. Since the end of the Cold War the general thinking was "democratic ideals -> economic prosperity -> good life". China's economic success without embracing democratic ideals to the extent that successful Western countries is making people and governments once again question whether or not the democratic ideals are actually needed. I would rather live in the US or Europe than China at the moment, but how long will that remain true for most people if China surpasses the US as the world's reigning superpower?
    - musage 8y ago
      > how long will that remain true for most people if China surpasses the US as the world's reigning superpower? You don't even answer it for yourself. Most people in Nazi Germany didn't mind what was done to Jews, and those who did could hardly do anything about it. Why does that affect your own judgement in the least, how many other people think what? Wouldn't you rather be in the company of the best people, than the most? If the Nazis had remained in control, washing brains and crushing dissent as they did, and bred Germany to be the most populous country in the world, would that matter?
  - smhost 8y ago
    > Very few citizens of those countries would choose to live in Xi's China instead. But that's not the relevant question. The relevant question is whether the businesses of those countries would choose to do business from within Xi's China.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      The Enlightenment was about more than business.
      - smhost 8y ago
        Oh, I'm with you there, but I'm skeptical that the lessons of the Enlightenment mean very much in a context where powerful business interests have actual control of public psychology to such an extent that they can convince people that they came to those conclusions of their own free will.
icebraining 8y ago
It's not the same kind of progress; they're mostly playing catch up.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  Well, yes, they have to play catch up now because we were/are ahead of them. The question is whether or not they will always be playing catch up, and whether or not that's directly related to the personal freedom of their citizens.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Yes, my point is that we still don't know, so it's early to use them as evidence one way or the other. And with a lack of evidence, Chesterton's Fence implies we shouldn't touch it.
- CodeCube 8y ago
  it's precisely the same kind of progress ... in the early 1900s, we were the poor country with plucky workers willing to do the hard manufacturing work. Then our middle class grew, and we no longer wanted to do that work, so we offloaded it to other countries. China is now going through that same growth. Eventually, their people will not want to do that work, and they will shunt it off to some other country (maybe using their massive investments in africa)
stale2002 8y ago
China is not a good counter example. China has massively westernized and expanded its freedoms. Sure, it still had a long way to go, but at least these days the Chinese government isn't arresting professors en mass and forcing them to work on farms. Yes, this literally happened. It was called the cultural revolution. As bad as humans rights and freedoms are in China, I think people really underestimate just how much worse they used to be.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  China has massively westernized but as you say, the only reason it took massive westernization to get to where they are is because they were so far in the other direction. There is a still a gulf between China's view of personal freedom and the West's view. It's also reasonable to be concerned that they will be moving away from the West's democratic ideals in the near future, seeing as their President just claimed the power to govern for life.

wilsonnb 8y ago

Indeed. The next 10 to 15 years in China will either further set an example that you don't need American/European democratic ideals in order for economic prosperity and a good life for your citizens, or it will go a long way to disproving the idea that those can be separated. With several eastern European countries trending in an authoritarian direction (and Turkey pretty far along that path already) I am worried about the effect that Chinese prosperity without democratic ideals will have.

kristianc 8y ago
Legatum rates China's prosperity at 90th in the world, alongside El Salvador and Nepal, precisely because the lack of personal freedom and environmental degradation act as a counterbalance against China's robust economy. You can question the methodology, but then you have to make an argument as to why Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Denmark, the US and other mature social democracies which routinely top these rankings are not good places to live. Very few citizens of those countries would choose to live in Xi's China instead.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  I don't have to make an argument as to why Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Denmark, and the US are not good places to live. They are good places to live. That has nothing to do with whether or not China is a good place to live. I only have to make the argument that personal freedom is not as important as economic prosperity. Since the end of the Cold War the general thinking was "democratic ideals -> economic prosperity -> good life". China's economic success without embracing democratic ideals to the extent that successful Western countries is making people and governments once again question whether or not the democratic ideals are actually needed. I would rather live in the US or Europe than China at the moment, but how long will that remain true for most people if China surpasses the US as the world's reigning superpower?
  - musage 8y ago
    > how long will that remain true for most people if China surpasses the US as the world's reigning superpower? You don't even answer it for yourself. Most people in Nazi Germany didn't mind what was done to Jews, and those who did could hardly do anything about it. Why does that affect your own judgement in the least, how many other people think what? Wouldn't you rather be in the company of the best people, than the most? If the Nazis had remained in control, washing brains and crushing dissent as they did, and bred Germany to be the most populous country in the world, would that matter?
- smhost 8y ago
  > Very few citizens of those countries would choose to live in Xi's China instead. But that's not the relevant question. The relevant question is whether the businesses of those countries would choose to do business from within Xi's China.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    The Enlightenment was about more than business.
    - smhost 8y ago
      Oh, I'm with you there, but I'm skeptical that the lessons of the Enlightenment mean very much in a context where powerful business interests have actual control of public psychology to such an extent that they can convince people that they came to those conclusions of their own free will.

icebraining 8y ago

It's not the same kind of progress; they're mostly playing catch up.

wilsonnb 8y ago
Well, yes, they have to play catch up now because we were/are ahead of them. The question is whether or not they will always be playing catch up, and whether or not that's directly related to the personal freedom of their citizens.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Yes, my point is that we still don't know, so it's early to use them as evidence one way or the other. And with a lack of evidence, Chesterton's Fence implies we shouldn't touch it.
CodeCube 8y ago
it's precisely the same kind of progress ... in the early 1900s, we were the poor country with plucky workers willing to do the hard manufacturing work. Then our middle class grew, and we no longer wanted to do that work, so we offloaded it to other countries. China is now going through that same growth. Eventually, their people will not want to do that work, and they will shunt it off to some other country (maybe using their massive investments in africa)

stale2002 8y ago

China is not a good counter example. China has massively westernized and expanded its freedoms. Sure, it still had a long way to go, but at least these days the Chinese government isn't arresting professors en mass and forcing them to work on farms. Yes, this literally happened. It was called the cultural revolution. As bad as humans rights and freedoms are in China, I think people really underestimate just how much worse they used to be.

wilsonnb 8y ago
China has massively westernized but as you say, the only reason it took massive westernization to get to where they are is because they were so far in the other direction. There is a still a gulf between China's view of personal freedom and the West's view. It's also reasonable to be concerned that they will be moving away from the West's democratic ideals in the near future, seeing as their President just claimed the power to govern for life.