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Well, on the one hand, it's not a problem. It's pure elitism to insist that laypeople learn Real Programming and make their spreadsheets the Right Way. Excel

Well, on the one hand, it's not a problem. It's pure elitism to insist that laypeople learn Real Programming and make their spreadsheets the Right Way. Excel + JS is going to be an empowering tool. But on the other hand, it's going to be a nightmare to maintain when you layer it on top of VBA macros, and some poor soul is going to end up responsible for making it continue to limp along. Nobody will understand how it works, it will take hours to calculate, and it will become a drag on the business. I mean, we're there already with macros alone. Imagine if Javascript and VBA macros are allowed to coexist in the same system. It's going to happen, it's going to be somebody's problem, and I feel sorry for them.

minton 9y ago
I thought this was part of the business model. Microsoft makes bank by rolling out an "empowering" tool (think Excel Macros, Access VBA, and LightSwitch) that allows the business folks to create their own solutions. Eventually they outgrow or simply can't maintain those solutions and hire developers, whom Microsoft made bank selling them "real" dev tools, to convert them into proper applications. Rinse and repeat.
- andyjpb 9y ago
  It's not as cynical as that. Microsoft provide the right tools at the right point in the business lifecycle. Have you ever been in a company where That Spreadsheet is rebuilt "properly" at great expense by "people who know what they are doing" and then, the first time the business wants a change it takes more than an afternoon and everyone goes back to the spreadsheet again? Some (most?) people aren't programmers and have no choice. Microsoft lets them be the masters of their own destiny.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
I don't think this worry comes out of elitism. On the contrary, I think it comes from trying to protect the business users - as messy as their tooling already is - from the JavaScript culture.
- Can_Not 8y ago
  > My language has good culture, JavaScript has bad culture I think you failed to move the goalpost away from elitism.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Well, if you want particulars - my favourite language has plenty of cultural problems, like huge NIH syndrome, or complete inability to actually finish a library (and don't get me started on documentation...). But JavaScript seems to have an unique cultural combination of "move fast and break things" coupled with complete disregard for any kind of efficiency considerations. I don't want to see the web bloat ported over to spreadsheets too.
    - Can_Not 8y ago
      You're making hasty generalization. JavaScript isn't one big homogeneous culture. I've never worked on a team where unnecessary library bloat and disregarding efficiency was acceptable. I've been to plenty of websites that reject that attitude. Usually businesses don't want to pay the extra dev hours (or quality dev rates) to get code optimized to my preferences.
toyg 9y ago
Your technical debt is someone else's business opportunity. This is how the IT world keeps expanding, despite increasing the degree of automation available to every process.

minton 9y ago

I thought this was part of the business model. Microsoft makes bank by rolling out an "empowering" tool (think Excel Macros, Access VBA, and LightSwitch) that allows the business folks to create their own solutions. Eventually they outgrow or simply can't maintain those solutions and hire developers, whom Microsoft made bank selling them "real" dev tools, to convert them into proper applications. Rinse and repeat.

andyjpb 9y ago
It's not as cynical as that. Microsoft provide the right tools at the right point in the business lifecycle. Have you ever been in a company where That Spreadsheet is rebuilt "properly" at great expense by "people who know what they are doing" and then, the first time the business wants a change it takes more than an afternoon and everyone goes back to the spreadsheet again? Some (most?) people aren't programmers and have no choice. Microsoft lets them be the masters of their own destiny.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

I don't think this worry comes out of elitism. On the contrary, I think it comes from trying to protect the business users - as messy as their tooling already is - from the JavaScript culture.

Can_Not 8y ago
> My language has good culture, JavaScript has bad culture I think you failed to move the goalpost away from elitism.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Well, if you want particulars - my favourite language has plenty of cultural problems, like huge NIH syndrome, or complete inability to actually finish a library (and don't get me started on documentation...). But JavaScript seems to have an unique cultural combination of "move fast and break things" coupled with complete disregard for any kind of efficiency considerations. I don't want to see the web bloat ported over to spreadsheets too.
  - Can_Not 8y ago
    You're making hasty generalization. JavaScript isn't one big homogeneous culture. I've never worked on a team where unnecessary library bloat and disregarding efficiency was acceptable. I've been to plenty of websites that reject that attitude. Usually businesses don't want to pay the extra dev hours (or quality dev rates) to get code optimized to my preferences.

toyg 9y ago

Your technical debt is someone else's business opportunity. This is how the IT world keeps expanding, despite increasing the degree of automation available to every process.