17 ms·

I find this to be really weird... Anyone who has worked on vehicles knows the importance of getting the exact right tool to unfasten a fastener (and the... cons

by lsc 8y ago

I find this to be really weird... Anyone who has worked on vehicles knows the importance of getting the exact right tool to unfasten a fastener (and the... consequences of using something that "almost works" - usually meaning you have to spend hours trying to get the fastener out) I mean, sure, you need tools to open things up... but the right bit is about a thousand times more important than an expensive bit, and for $10, you can get a huge assortment of cheap bits that are good enough for the home gamer. This always baffled me about the apple pentalobe haters... I mean, using a different screwdriver head is not the unfriendly part of taking an apple apart. The glued-in bits are the unfriendly part.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> Anyone who has worked on vehicles knows the importance of getting the exact right tool to unfasten a fastener If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... It's a matter of lag in the supply/demand loop. The moment Apple introduced pentalobe screws, or in general, the moment a different company introduces an unusual screw head, is the moment when you're very unlikely to be able to get your hands on appropriate drivers. As more and more products use the new head, the demand becomes big enough that eventually, appropriate drivers get available and cheap. From what I've seen, this can take years - longer than the lifetime of the first iteration of a product using the new screws. Enough to destroy end-user repairability for a whole category of products. After a while, the company will change screw heads again, rinse and repeat. And the glue. That's just companies being assholes. (Yes, I know there are technical benefits of using glue. They're especially pronounced if you don't consider end-user or third-party serviceability in your design process, and even more so if you explicitly try to eliminate it in your business strategy.)
- lsc 8y ago
  >If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... Meh, I'm mostly talking about getting the right socket for the job... I mean, don't use the ASE socket that is almost the same as the metric bolt you are working on, go down to the hardware store and get the right tool. That's the thing about automotive work; as far as I can tell, automotive tools are very widely available and cheap, compared to other tools I've worked with, and not only that, but you go to the auto parts store, and the people are helpful and knowledgeable. I mean, if I need some SAC305 on the weekend, well, fry's might have that, maybe, but nobody there will know the difference between SAC305 and sn99. If I need any sort of server-grade parts, I'm almost certainly stuck waiting for monday. Fry's has a very small selection of ECC memory or enterprise-grade disks, for example. And you aren't going to have a Fry's in a small town, but you will have a Napa auto or similar. I mean, part of it is that I know a fair bit about computers and really not all that much about cars, but when I show up even at the chain auto parts stores, they can answer even relatively difficult questions. This is not, in my experience, true of Frys. When it comes to tech support, be it a computer or a car that needs fixing, the difficulty of a question is directly proportional to it's vagueness. Newbies are more likely to ask difficult questions than more experienced and knowledgeable people who actually know enough to tell you what the actual problem is.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >I mean, don't use the ASE socket that is almost the same as the metric bolt you are working on Just use whatever fits tightest. Fasteners get smaller from rust. Some people organize their sockets by size and ignore which unit they're sized in. > they can answer even relatively difficult questions. This is not, in my experience, true of Frys. This is only because you don't know what you don't know and don't have reason to ask complicated or very specific questions at the auto parts store whereas you do at the computer store. The median parts counter person has the same depth of knowledge across basically all industries. https://seekerblog.com/2006/01/31/the-murray-gell-mann-amnesia-effect/ https://seekerblog.com/2006/01/31/the-murray-gell-mann-amnes...
- analog31 8y ago
  Glue is often an afterthought, when they discover that the meager number of screws doesn't hold the product together and they're a month from shipping.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Glue also fall in that case. It feels like a problem but more often than you know it's possible to unglue something. It just require different tools and knowledge.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    What are the typical tools and methods to unglue stuff when fixing electronics?
    - jamiek88 8y ago
      Heat and a sharp knife mostly.
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        Suction cups for panels
    - jowsie 8y ago
      Some phone makers are even kind enough to put removal tabs on the adhesive holding the battery in, so you can just heat it a tiny bit and pull on the tab to put a new battery in (still voids your warranty though).
- magduf 8y ago
  >If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... If you're an individual, you go to Harbor Freight and get yourself a tool set for $10 or $20. Tools are dirt cheap these days, and there's no excuse to not have the right one if you want to work on something.
agumonkey 8y ago
sure, for heavy machines you'll know because you can't get away with random tools. For electronics, you can force some screws out even with plyers if need be

by lsc 8y ago

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> Anyone who has worked on vehicles knows the importance of getting the exact right tool to unfasten a fastener If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... It's a matter of lag in the supply/demand loop. The moment Apple introduced pentalobe screws, or in general, the moment a different company introduces an unusual screw head, is the moment when you're very unlikely to be able to get your hands on appropriate drivers. As more and more products use the new head, the demand becomes big enough that eventually, appropriate drivers get available and cheap. From what I've seen, this can take years - longer than the lifetime of the first iteration of a product using the new screws. Enough to destroy end-user repairability for a whole category of products. After a while, the company will change screw heads again, rinse and repeat. And the glue. That's just companies being assholes. (Yes, I know there are technical benefits of using glue. They're especially pronounced if you don't consider end-user or third-party serviceability in your design process, and even more so if you explicitly try to eliminate it in your business strategy.)

lsc 8y ago
>If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... Meh, I'm mostly talking about getting the right socket for the job... I mean, don't use the ASE socket that is almost the same as the metric bolt you are working on, go down to the hardware store and get the right tool. That's the thing about automotive work; as far as I can tell, automotive tools are very widely available and cheap, compared to other tools I've worked with, and not only that, but you go to the auto parts store, and the people are helpful and knowledgeable. I mean, if I need some SAC305 on the weekend, well, fry's might have that, maybe, but nobody there will know the difference between SAC305 and sn99. If I need any sort of server-grade parts, I'm almost certainly stuck waiting for monday. Fry's has a very small selection of ECC memory or enterprise-grade disks, for example. And you aren't going to have a Fry's in a small town, but you will have a Napa auto or similar. I mean, part of it is that I know a fair bit about computers and really not all that much about cars, but when I show up even at the chain auto parts stores, they can answer even relatively difficult questions. This is not, in my experience, true of Frys. When it comes to tech support, be it a computer or a car that needs fixing, the difficulty of a question is directly proportional to it's vagueness. Newbies are more likely to ask difficult questions than more experienced and knowledgeable people who actually know enough to tell you what the actual problem is.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >I mean, don't use the ASE socket that is almost the same as the metric bolt you are working on Just use whatever fits tightest. Fasteners get smaller from rust. Some people organize their sockets by size and ignore which unit they're sized in. > they can answer even relatively difficult questions. This is not, in my experience, true of Frys. This is only because you don't know what you don't know and don't have reason to ask complicated or very specific questions at the auto parts store whereas you do at the computer store. The median parts counter person has the same depth of knowledge across basically all industries. https://seekerblog.com/2006/01/31/the-murray-gell-mann-amnesia-effect/ https://seekerblog.com/2006/01/31/the-murray-gell-mann-amnes...
analog31 8y ago
Glue is often an afterthought, when they discover that the meager number of screws doesn't hold the product together and they're a month from shipping.
agumonkey 8y ago
Glue also fall in that case. It feels like a problem but more often than you know it's possible to unglue something. It just require different tools and knowledge.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  What are the typical tools and methods to unglue stuff when fixing electronics?
  - jamiek88 8y ago
    Heat and a sharp knife mostly.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      Suction cups for panels
  - jowsie 8y ago
    Some phone makers are even kind enough to put removal tabs on the adhesive holding the battery in, so you can just heat it a tiny bit and pull on the tab to put a new battery in (still voids your warranty though).
magduf 8y ago
>If you're a pro auto shop, you can probably get your hands on all of the exactly right tools. If you're an individual, it's another story... If you're an individual, you go to Harbor Freight and get yourself a tool set for $10 or $20. Tools are dirt cheap these days, and there's no excuse to not have the right one if you want to work on something.

agumonkey 8y ago

sure, for heavy machines you'll know because you can't get away with random tools. For electronics, you can force some screws out even with plyers if need be