6 ms·

I'm a big fan of RMS, but I've got to say "No". He's not a maintainer. He doesn't get a vote. If he wants to work his way back into that project, then I've g

I'm a big fan of RMS, but I've got to say "No". He's not a maintainer. He doesn't get a vote. If he wants to work his way back into that project, then I've got no problem with it. But he doesn't. It's like the CEO telling you that he wants a joke in the technical documentation for one of your libraries. They might get away with it because of their position, but it's an abuse of that position even if the CEO used to be coder #1 on the project. Not that it doesn't happen all over the place...

llukas 9y ago
If there is business justification of joke in documentation then maintainer has no authority to say no. RMS is a CEO and he ultimately controls the project goals. If you think otherwise you fork.
- eesmith 9y ago
  That's not the way a company works. A CEO is not dictator, and there are more paths to resolution than simply following orders or quitting. Why then should the dictatorial mode be the way a non-profit or volunteer effort works? Moreover, in a company it's the Board of Directors which delegates authority to the CEO. And the shareholders could override even them. So if we interpret glibc as as a cooperative where the shareholders are also the developers and others working on the project, then certainly the shareholders could override management.
  - wiz21c 9y ago
    >>> A CEO is not dictator well, he definitely is for those under him (not those besides).
    - eesmith 9y ago
      I've been trying to figure out an answer which was more concrete than "I disagree", and ran into the problem that I can't figure out what "dictator" is supposed to mean, other than "person in authority whom I disagree with." I mean, people called Obama a dictator (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-newly-see-obama-as-a-dictator-and-impressive-2015-01-20 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-newly-see-obama-... ), Jeremy Corby (http://www.livetradingnews.com/jeremy-corbyn-turns-dictator-power-crumbles-46661.html http://www.livetradingnews.com/jeremy-corbyn-turns-dictator-... ), a teacher's union (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-stieber/i-am-a-dictator-a-chicago_b_7974616.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-stieber/i-am-a-dictator-... ), and more. When I wrote that, I was thinking specifically of how a union could override a CEO's demands demands, eg, by (threat of) lawsuit over breaking an employment agreement, or by collective action. Then again, a dictator also has to worry about a mass uprising. Then again again, so does a president - the US president is the chief of the executive branch of the US. Do you think a CEO is dictator by definition, or that there is no way for a CEO to be anything other than a dictator? If so, what do you mean by dictator?
      - jacobush 9y ago
        People call all sorts of things, all sorts of words. It's common in discourse to use a little hyperbole. That does not make Obama, or Jeremy Corbyn, bona fide dictators. Even as stated, you miss the mark. The president is chief of the executive branch of the US, yes. But the president is not chief of congress, or the judicial system.
        eesmith 9y ago
        Certainly. I was the one who wrote that "the CEO is not a dictator". This is trivially true as the CEO is not the authoritarian head of a country. So I must have meant something a little hyperbolic. I just don't know how to define that in any meaningful sense so as to be able to talk about it. I don't know what mark I missed. I objected to the llukas' proposition that the CEO in a business "ultimately controls the project goals." I agree that in the US government, the chief executive does not have full control. I think it's meaningful point that the chief executive does not necessarily have final control. Personally, I think it's a simpler story to talk about the CEO as some sort of heroic authoritarian leader, which is why we end up with those sorts of stories.
      - wiz21c 9y ago
        I think there is no other way to be a dictator (as long as he's appointed byt the board). Now what is a dictator to me ? A dictator is someone you can't disagree with. The dictator may be benevolent or not, may exercise his power or not, but in the end he's the one in power. And you can't disagree with him because you have much less power (he can fire you, he's got the money, he decides on what you work, you're the one who needs the job, etc.). Just try to contest the authority (not the ideas, the style or whatever, just the authority) of your boss, and you'll see what happens. Now from the board of director point of view, the CEO is not a dictator, he's someone who's running the company and giving advice on how to make it grow, make it better, whatever. So he's definitely in a positive role. Could he be something else than a dictator ? Maybe. He could be "secretary" and then the power could be given to a part of the company's personnel, like a union. Those people would attend the board of director. But that would assume the fact that the board is willing to do that... I guess it's easier to scream on the CEO than on a group of people :-)
- shub 9y ago
  Is there really a clear line of authority between the glibc maintainers and RMS? It certainly doesn't seem like it. Authority decays, and RMS's is gone, over glibc at least. Compare with GvR: Guido is involved day-to-day, talks to people, makes decisions. No one questions whether he has power, because he uses it, although they certainly question the way he uses it. I think the monarchy of the United Kingdom is good way to look at RMS's position here. On paper the monarch has a lot of power, but the reality is that they don't and trying to use it would provoke exactly the kind of crisis we're seeing here.
  - labster 9y ago
    I have a hard time imagining the monarch insisting on a joke. Not just Queen Elizabeth, but any hereditary monarch from the modern age. Monarchs retain authority because they're good at politics... RMS, not so much. That's not to say his political positions are wrong, just that the man is impolitic at times. Monarchs exert soft power pretty much constantly, with public appearances, knighthoods, and recognition of great deeds. They often end up as the most popular political figures of their republics. So while monarchs are a fossil species in modern governments (since WWI), they retain enough of the royal prerogative to exercise those paper rights it when it actually matters. I think we're all second-guessing RMS here because he's using the perogative in a situation where it truly doesn't matter.
    - mikekchar 9y ago
      Case in point: In Japan Prime Minister Abe wanted to change the constitution to allow Japan to engage in external conflicts if allies were in danger. The emperor of Japan suddenly said, "I'm old, you know. I think I want to retire, but there is no constitutional law that will allow me to abdicate. Please write this law ASAP". Prime Minister Abe does not have resources to do both constitutional changes at the same time... The emperor of Japan is really awesome.
      - oblio 9y ago
        I guess they learned from the last few times when military juntas took control of Japan and burned everything to the ground, in the end.
- hacknat 9y ago
  They should. Glibc breaks its interface every few years. I’d love to see all the GNU tools migrate over to the Linux foundation, where they would be stable, safe, and free from autocracy.
rurban 9y ago
He might not be the maintainer, but he is the BDFL. It's about respect. See what happened to Drepper who violated his respect. I like the joke, and I sympathize with RMS to let it in. In any case he opposed it so there is now a power struggle about the control of his project. I would love to see a better maintained glibc btw. Too much politics, not enough competence.
- DandyDev 9y ago
  The dictator in question certainly doesn't seem Benevolent to me in this case.
  - Tepix 9y ago
    It's not like he is not benevolent either.
  - rurban 9y ago
    He certainly is. He tries to protect the project from morons, which invaded most bigger projects which are not cultured in technical discussions anymore. Compare that to the education of doctors. They need to persist on proper terminology and are hardened in a long process. PC is absolutely counterproductive there. Many obviously did not get the reference in this paragraph, but it still relevant, as this episode showed. Abort vs kill is loaded by a long fight, hence the reference about future censorship attempts.
    - keiyakins 9y ago
      > PC is absolutely counterproductive there A. No, the terminology used by medical professionals is constantly shifting to do things like acknowledge that people with issues are still people. B. Your reasoning is presumably about confusion and lack of clarity, yes? How exactly is a reference to a law that has never been proposed serving that?
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > The dictator in question certainly doesn't seem Benevolent to me in this case. I don't see the point. RMS directs the organization and establises the policy it follows. I fail to see how a maintainer could feel entitled to dictate that policy just because he has access to the repository. That would be like a printing press janitor feeling entitled to censor what he feels a newspaper should not publish.
nialv7 9y ago
Well, let's not forget that "CEO" wrote that technical documentation. And probably also wrote (at least an older version of) the code, too.
- tomtimtall 9y ago
  Which counts for absolutely nothing. A CEO running around the floor of the business telling programmers what jokes belong in what docs is a shit CEO no matter what he didn’t years past.
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    I fail to see why, if that joke is actually a clear statement of the fundamental message that the project was designed to convey, and the whole reason why the FSF exists.
- compsciphd 9y ago
  not quite true, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library#History

llukas 9y ago

If there is business justification of joke in documentation then maintainer has no authority to say no. RMS is a CEO and he ultimately controls the project goals. If you think otherwise you fork.

eesmith 9y ago
That's not the way a company works. A CEO is not dictator, and there are more paths to resolution than simply following orders or quitting. Why then should the dictatorial mode be the way a non-profit or volunteer effort works? Moreover, in a company it's the Board of Directors which delegates authority to the CEO. And the shareholders could override even them. So if we interpret glibc as as a cooperative where the shareholders are also the developers and others working on the project, then certainly the shareholders could override management.
- wiz21c 9y ago
  >>> A CEO is not dictator well, he definitely is for those under him (not those besides).
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I've been trying to figure out an answer which was more concrete than "I disagree", and ran into the problem that I can't figure out what "dictator" is supposed to mean, other than "person in authority whom I disagree with." I mean, people called Obama a dictator (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-newly-see-obama-as-a-dictator-and-impressive-2015-01-20 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-newly-see-obama-... ), Jeremy Corby (http://www.livetradingnews.com/jeremy-corbyn-turns-dictator-power-crumbles-46661.html http://www.livetradingnews.com/jeremy-corbyn-turns-dictator-... ), a teacher's union (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-stieber/i-am-a-dictator-a-chicago_b_7974616.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-stieber/i-am-a-dictator-... ), and more. When I wrote that, I was thinking specifically of how a union could override a CEO's demands demands, eg, by (threat of) lawsuit over breaking an employment agreement, or by collective action. Then again, a dictator also has to worry about a mass uprising. Then again again, so does a president - the US president is the chief of the executive branch of the US. Do you think a CEO is dictator by definition, or that there is no way for a CEO to be anything other than a dictator? If so, what do you mean by dictator?
    - jacobush 9y ago
      People call all sorts of things, all sorts of words. It's common in discourse to use a little hyperbole. That does not make Obama, or Jeremy Corbyn, bona fide dictators. Even as stated, you miss the mark. The president is chief of the executive branch of the US, yes. But the president is not chief of congress, or the judicial system.
      - eesmith 9y ago
        Certainly. I was the one who wrote that "the CEO is not a dictator". This is trivially true as the CEO is not the authoritarian head of a country. So I must have meant something a little hyperbolic. I just don't know how to define that in any meaningful sense so as to be able to talk about it. I don't know what mark I missed. I objected to the llukas' proposition that the CEO in a business "ultimately controls the project goals." I agree that in the US government, the chief executive does not have full control. I think it's meaningful point that the chief executive does not necessarily have final control. Personally, I think it's a simpler story to talk about the CEO as some sort of heroic authoritarian leader, which is why we end up with those sorts of stories.
    - wiz21c 9y ago
      I think there is no other way to be a dictator (as long as he's appointed byt the board). Now what is a dictator to me ? A dictator is someone you can't disagree with. The dictator may be benevolent or not, may exercise his power or not, but in the end he's the one in power. And you can't disagree with him because you have much less power (he can fire you, he's got the money, he decides on what you work, you're the one who needs the job, etc.). Just try to contest the authority (not the ideas, the style or whatever, just the authority) of your boss, and you'll see what happens. Now from the board of director point of view, the CEO is not a dictator, he's someone who's running the company and giving advice on how to make it grow, make it better, whatever. So he's definitely in a positive role. Could he be something else than a dictator ? Maybe. He could be "secretary" and then the power could be given to a part of the company's personnel, like a union. Those people would attend the board of director. But that would assume the fact that the board is willing to do that... I guess it's easier to scream on the CEO than on a group of people :-)
shub 9y ago
Is there really a clear line of authority between the glibc maintainers and RMS? It certainly doesn't seem like it. Authority decays, and RMS's is gone, over glibc at least. Compare with GvR: Guido is involved day-to-day, talks to people, makes decisions. No one questions whether he has power, because he uses it, although they certainly question the way he uses it. I think the monarchy of the United Kingdom is good way to look at RMS's position here. On paper the monarch has a lot of power, but the reality is that they don't and trying to use it would provoke exactly the kind of crisis we're seeing here.
- labster 9y ago
  I have a hard time imagining the monarch insisting on a joke. Not just Queen Elizabeth, but any hereditary monarch from the modern age. Monarchs retain authority because they're good at politics... RMS, not so much. That's not to say his political positions are wrong, just that the man is impolitic at times. Monarchs exert soft power pretty much constantly, with public appearances, knighthoods, and recognition of great deeds. They often end up as the most popular political figures of their republics. So while monarchs are a fossil species in modern governments (since WWI), they retain enough of the royal prerogative to exercise those paper rights it when it actually matters. I think we're all second-guessing RMS here because he's using the perogative in a situation where it truly doesn't matter.
  - mikekchar 9y ago
    Case in point: In Japan Prime Minister Abe wanted to change the constitution to allow Japan to engage in external conflicts if allies were in danger. The emperor of Japan suddenly said, "I'm old, you know. I think I want to retire, but there is no constitutional law that will allow me to abdicate. Please write this law ASAP". Prime Minister Abe does not have resources to do both constitutional changes at the same time... The emperor of Japan is really awesome.
    - oblio 9y ago
      I guess they learned from the last few times when military juntas took control of Japan and burned everything to the ground, in the end.
hacknat 9y ago
They should. Glibc breaks its interface every few years. I’d love to see all the GNU tools migrate over to the Linux foundation, where they would be stable, safe, and free from autocracy.

rurban 9y ago

He might not be the maintainer, but he is the BDFL. It's about respect. See what happened to Drepper who violated his respect. I like the joke, and I sympathize with RMS to let it in. In any case he opposed it so there is now a power struggle about the control of his project. I would love to see a better maintained glibc btw. Too much politics, not enough competence.

DandyDev 9y ago
The dictator in question certainly doesn't seem Benevolent to me in this case.
- Tepix 9y ago
  It's not like he is not benevolent either.
- rurban 9y ago
  He certainly is. He tries to protect the project from morons, which invaded most bigger projects which are not cultured in technical discussions anymore. Compare that to the education of doctors. They need to persist on proper terminology and are hardened in a long process. PC is absolutely counterproductive there. Many obviously did not get the reference in this paragraph, but it still relevant, as this episode showed. Abort vs kill is loaded by a long fight, hence the reference about future censorship attempts.
  - keiyakins 9y ago
    > PC is absolutely counterproductive there A. No, the terminology used by medical professionals is constantly shifting to do things like acknowledge that people with issues are still people. B. Your reasoning is presumably about confusion and lack of clarity, yes? How exactly is a reference to a law that has never been proposed serving that?
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > The dictator in question certainly doesn't seem Benevolent to me in this case. I don't see the point. RMS directs the organization and establises the policy it follows. I fail to see how a maintainer could feel entitled to dictate that policy just because he has access to the repository. That would be like a printing press janitor feeling entitled to censor what he feels a newspaper should not publish.

nialv7 9y ago

Well, let's not forget that "CEO" wrote that technical documentation. And probably also wrote (at least an older version of) the code, too.

tomtimtall 9y ago
Which counts for absolutely nothing. A CEO running around the floor of the business telling programmers what jokes belong in what docs is a shit CEO no matter what he didn’t years past.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  I fail to see why, if that joke is actually a clear statement of the fundamental message that the project was designed to convey, and the whole reason why the FSF exists.
compsciphd 9y ago
not quite true, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library#History