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>I [...] worked as an engineer at a well-known Bitcoin company). >Having said that, "Wall Street" should be wary of enabling the use of a system that is using m

>I [...] worked as an engineer at a well-known Bitcoin company). >Having said that, "Wall Street" should be wary of enabling the use of a system that is using more electricity than the country of Switzerland [0] without any productive output You worked at a Bitcoin company and don't understand the value of proof of work? Being able to trustlessly settle shared stated across the entire globe is unproductive output? The globe spend billions of dollars each year blowing up mountains to sift for gold that then sit in central bank vaults to collect dust. At least bitcoin mining can absorb some of the curtailed renewable energy and make the payback on renewables faster.

hudon 8y ago
I understand the claims of proof-of-work. What I'm asking for is evidence. Do you have any scientific research indicating that Bitcoin will ultimately be an efficiency? Or is it a hunch? How much energy does Bitcoin need to consume before you demand evidence that it does as you claim?
almostApatriot1 8y ago
The "not as bad as" fallacy, also known as the fallacy of relative privation, asserts that: If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then The problem currently being discussed isn't that important at all. In order for the statement "A is not as bad as B," to suggest a fallacy there must be a fallacious conclusion such as: ignore A.[0] [0]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as
jonny_eh 8y ago
Has the growth in popularity of BTC affected the perceived value of gold? You seem to be asserting that crypto-coin popularity will save the planet by reducing gold mining, I'm very skeptical.
- DINKDINK 8y ago
  Advantages of gold over bitcoin: If there's a total internet && computer && electricity apocalypse, a physical barter exchange with gold is more trustless than bitcoin. You can still transact bitcoin but there's trust involved. Advantages of Bitcoin over gold: No trusted third party (If you're moving sizable sums of gold, you're doing it with a trusted third party[TTP)) 99.99226%[1] transaction uptime (Your TTP keep business hours) No countries win the gold-geography lottery (Your country that has no gold reserves can still accumulate) Instantly assay the value (gold takes time) You can use latent renewable energy to mine bitcoin (the way that miners remain profitable is by using cheap hydro power that would be wasted if not consumed) No need to blow up mountains to sift for gold. Bitcoin is programmable value (People in places without functioning judicial/commercial systems can create contracts with each other) You cannot practically bring more bitcoin to market if the price increases (The price of gold dictates which gold fields are profitable to produce) Most importantly, it separates money that citizens use and the onus of financial obligations that the oligopoly (Banker's bailout 2008) and political class (Endless war) place on citizens. [1]http://bitcoinuptime.com/ http://bitcoinuptime.com/
  - Fomite 8y ago
    I've always thought the Bitcoin use-case (admittedly from a subset of Bitcoin users) of "Complete collapse in the banking system" but somehow the internet still works without issue was...somewhat tenuous.
    - sparkie 8y ago
      It's not a collapse of all banking systems, but the fiat money system which is dictated by central banks (which are mostly private entities, not government bodies). It means when governments want to borrow more money, their lenders actually need to have the liquidity available and can't just magic it out of thin air.
  - mvindahl 8y ago
    Further advantages of gold over bitcoin: 1) Has been used for millennia. Bitcoin was invented ten years ago. 2) Accepted as valuable by most of human population. Bitcoin mostly as valuable within internet echo bubbles. 3) Although price fluctuates, it's more stable than that of bitcoin, thus better suited as store of value. 4) Has applications for industrial uses or for jewelry, guaranteeing that your gold retains at least a base value. Same cannot be said of prime number data structures. 5) Doesn't corrode and doesn't depend upon hardware or storage media to be working. I'm not saying that people should hoard gold, just that bitcoin is a pretty poor substitute. And, BTW: > No countries win the gold-geography lottery (Your country that has no gold reserves can still accumulate) Pop quiz: the population of Germany is roughly on par with the population of The Democratic Republic of Congo. Do the citizens of the two countries currently hold the same amount of bitcoin? If not, how come?
    - VMG 8y ago
      > 5) Doesn't corrode and doesn't depend upon hardware or storage media to be working. Bitcoin corrodes? You can encode your private keys in Gold if you want to.
      - mvindahl 8y ago
- cpplinuxdude 8y ago
  I happen to know an exec in gold mining (we had a brief fling), and she mentioned they do see bitcoin as a clear competitor to gold. For what that's worth.
zby 8y ago
Gold as a value store is kind of better tested in all circumstances. Some time ago I wrote an essay on proof of work and gold: https://medium.com/@zby/proof-of-work-8d8265def194 https://medium.com/@zby/proof-of-work-8d8265def194
tuesdayrain 8y ago
Proof of work isn't a requirement for those things. Proof of Stake is virtually as secure, and in some cases more secure, than PoW. While also being much more environmentally friendly.

hudon 8y ago

I understand the claims of proof-of-work. What I'm asking for is evidence. Do you have any scientific research indicating that Bitcoin will ultimately be an efficiency? Or is it a hunch? How much energy does Bitcoin need to consume before you demand evidence that it does as you claim?

almostApatriot1 8y ago

The "not as bad as" fallacy, also known as the fallacy of relative privation, asserts that: If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then The problem currently being discussed isn't that important at all. In order for the statement "A is not as bad as B," to suggest a fallacy there must be a fallacious conclusion such as: ignore A.[0] [0]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

jonny_eh 8y ago

Has the growth in popularity of BTC affected the perceived value of gold? You seem to be asserting that crypto-coin popularity will save the planet by reducing gold mining, I'm very skeptical.

DINKDINK 8y ago
Advantages of gold over bitcoin: If there's a total internet && computer && electricity apocalypse, a physical barter exchange with gold is more trustless than bitcoin. You can still transact bitcoin but there's trust involved. Advantages of Bitcoin over gold: No trusted third party (If you're moving sizable sums of gold, you're doing it with a trusted third party[TTP)) 99.99226%[1] transaction uptime (Your TTP keep business hours) No countries win the gold-geography lottery (Your country that has no gold reserves can still accumulate) Instantly assay the value (gold takes time) You can use latent renewable energy to mine bitcoin (the way that miners remain profitable is by using cheap hydro power that would be wasted if not consumed) No need to blow up mountains to sift for gold. Bitcoin is programmable value (People in places without functioning judicial/commercial systems can create contracts with each other) You cannot practically bring more bitcoin to market if the price increases (The price of gold dictates which gold fields are profitable to produce) Most importantly, it separates money that citizens use and the onus of financial obligations that the oligopoly (Banker's bailout 2008) and political class (Endless war) place on citizens. [1]http://bitcoinuptime.com/ http://bitcoinuptime.com/
- Fomite 8y ago
  I've always thought the Bitcoin use-case (admittedly from a subset of Bitcoin users) of "Complete collapse in the banking system" but somehow the internet still works without issue was...somewhat tenuous.
  - sparkie 8y ago
    It's not a collapse of all banking systems, but the fiat money system which is dictated by central banks (which are mostly private entities, not government bodies). It means when governments want to borrow more money, their lenders actually need to have the liquidity available and can't just magic it out of thin air.
- mvindahl 8y ago
  Further advantages of gold over bitcoin: 1) Has been used for millennia. Bitcoin was invented ten years ago. 2) Accepted as valuable by most of human population. Bitcoin mostly as valuable within internet echo bubbles. 3) Although price fluctuates, it's more stable than that of bitcoin, thus better suited as store of value. 4) Has applications for industrial uses or for jewelry, guaranteeing that your gold retains at least a base value. Same cannot be said of prime number data structures. 5) Doesn't corrode and doesn't depend upon hardware or storage media to be working. I'm not saying that people should hoard gold, just that bitcoin is a pretty poor substitute. And, BTW: > No countries win the gold-geography lottery (Your country that has no gold reserves can still accumulate) Pop quiz: the population of Germany is roughly on par with the population of The Democratic Republic of Congo. Do the citizens of the two countries currently hold the same amount of bitcoin? If not, how come?
  - VMG 8y ago
    > 5) Doesn't corrode and doesn't depend upon hardware or storage media to be working. Bitcoin corrodes? You can encode your private keys in Gold if you want to.
    - mvindahl 8y ago
cpplinuxdude 8y ago
I happen to know an exec in gold mining (we had a brief fling), and she mentioned they do see bitcoin as a clear competitor to gold. For what that's worth.

zby 8y ago

Gold as a value store is kind of better tested in all circumstances. Some time ago I wrote an essay on proof of work and gold: https://medium.com/@zby/proof-of-work-8d8265def194 https://medium.com/@zby/proof-of-work-8d8265def194

tuesdayrain 8y ago

Proof of work isn't a requirement for those things. Proof of Stake is virtually as secure, and in some cases more secure, than PoW. While also being much more environmentally friendly.