5 ms·

I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few mont

I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench. We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.

slededit 9y ago
Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.
- bagels 9y ago
  I wish auto manufacturers knew this.
  - jammi 9y ago
    They do. Cars are engineered to fail and some models are sold even at loss to get the profit from OEM parts and service. This is also often the reason why seemingly similar parts are incompatible from one model to the next; the manufacturers are racing against the (often much more durable) aftermarket parts. If they were in the business of making cars great for the consumers, they'd engineer them strong with grease fittings on every moving joint and have all parts standardized across models and brands, differentiated mostly by car size or such (supercompact vs crossover suv vs heavy-duty truck). This would however result in cars that would be easily maintained to last forever, like some old work equipment is and that'd be bad for the planned obsolescence market model of car manufacturers.
    - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
      And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)
      - jammi 9y ago
        Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has excessive backlash, it'll cause prematurely worn out parts in the rest of the system it's a part of as well. My daily driver is a 25 year old car that I'm keeping on preventive maintenance. I got it when it was 16 years old and still in pretty good shape since it was barely used and always kept in a warm garage. I've always had pretty old, but well maintained cars in order to minimize the total cost of ownership of them, and kept them running until something too difficult or expensive breaks. I never value them for what I'd get for selling them, because I've never sold a car nor planned to. To me, the car value is always the utility and TCO value of knowing the state of them via preventive maintenance repairs. Usually the failing part not worth fixing is the body, either due to a collision or rust damage. In addition to always inspecting an used car from underneath, a thing I learned early was to replace all the cash-cow OEM parts with upgraded parts when possible. If not, at least try to have repaired parts made that are improved at the point of failure to be stronger than OEM parts, so that they don't fail the same way again. Factoring the preventive repair into the price of the used car is required in order to be sure to afford owning the car. After that initial preventive repair, it's about checking the parts stay like new, or it becomes very expensive to keep very quickly once something fails after a part's worn out. Anyhow, look at farm equipment, mine equipment and such to see what vehicles not engineered to fail are constructed like, and I don't mean the extra robustness of the loadbearing parts for the much larger workloads they're designed for.
        germinalphrase 9y ago
        And advice on identifying such cash-cow parts? My vehicle repair knowledge is limited.
        jammi 9y ago
        Experience first-hand or via experts who repair them daily, the former can be done by owning the same car or brand for a longer while and spotting the pattern. Prefer makes that have excellent rust protection and models with relatively low stress configuration engines rather than high performance models. The two latter are usually mechanically the same or mostly the same, but the latter of them receive much larger stresses in use and hence tend to fail earlier. If you intend to modify the car, prefer older ones, because they have lower regulations, but this depends on the legislative area you are in as well. For instance cars with OBD-II are too new for engine upgrades almost anywhere.
    - dotancohen 9y ago
      OP is being downvoted for starting off on a rant, but he is 100% correct about the grease fittings.
    - bagels 9y ago
      Maybe it's that they don't care. Last transmission I rebuilt (following.factory service manual) had a Phillips fastener with threadlock on it that required destructive removal after careful use of a manual impact driver. Replaced it with a threadlocked Allen fastener.
      - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
        > destructive removal When in doubt, drill it out?
SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
Even without thread locking compound, if the thing they're stuck in has corroded the screw/bolt or expanded. Phillips shouldn't strip going in, but it sure as hell strips coming out.
- stephen_g 9y ago
  Yeah, this is compounded by the fact that our products go into marine environments - all our fasteners are 316 stainless but there are still sometimes galvanic issues.
  - Gracana 9y ago
    Stainless fasteners are the worst. My company builds food equipment so they're a necessity, but... ugh. They gall terribly and they're squishy. If there happens to be a burr or crud in the threads, you might as well grab your angle grinder and drill, because that screw is not going to come out any other way.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      It's interesting you say that, because I had a good experience with stainless! I used to use a lot of stainless bolts on machines that went into hostile[1] environments. We used a variety of hex socket bolts, with thread lock compounds and calibrated torgue drivers to put them in and uncalibrated drivers to take them out when they eventually came back for refurb. We rarely had problems putting them in or taking them out. I don't know why problems were so rare. I think it being a safety critical industry helped: we bought expensive bolts and tools, and people had some training to use them. [1] These were used on "Chock Control Interfaces". Here's a video. The box he's pushing buttons on is a chock control interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s Here's an explanation of longwall mining and what a chock is (simply, powered roof supports that move forward as the cutting tool removes material): http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1chock.aspx http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1cho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment
magduf 9y ago
>I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Yeah, that's your problem right there. Removing an old Phillips screw will take more (usually much more) torque than it took to install it, so it'll cam out. The problem is that you're trying to get them out. Don't do that. Phillips screws were never designed for removal that way. They were meant to be used for installation only, and to limit torque on installation. If it's been installed with thread-locker, that should be a sign to you that it's never supposed to be removed. If you want a screw that's meant to be removed after years of service, pick something else; Phillips is not designed for this.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  Unfortunately, if you're trying to remove a screw after years of service, chances are you weren't the one who originally decided what type of screw head to use.
- vertexFarm 9y ago
  He's correct about this. Phillips was an early attempt at a one-way fastener. Doesn't mean the manufacturer isn't a dick for using them. If you're working on something really important, like auto mechanics or the like, consider buying new fasteners when you reach re-assembly. Those old stretched bolts probably need to be freshened up anyway.

slededit 9y ago

Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.

bagels 9y ago
I wish auto manufacturers knew this.
- jammi 9y ago
  They do. Cars are engineered to fail and some models are sold even at loss to get the profit from OEM parts and service. This is also often the reason why seemingly similar parts are incompatible from one model to the next; the manufacturers are racing against the (often much more durable) aftermarket parts. If they were in the business of making cars great for the consumers, they'd engineer them strong with grease fittings on every moving joint and have all parts standardized across models and brands, differentiated mostly by car size or such (supercompact vs crossover suv vs heavy-duty truck). This would however result in cars that would be easily maintained to last forever, like some old work equipment is and that'd be bad for the planned obsolescence market model of car manufacturers.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)
    - jammi 9y ago
      Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has excessive backlash, it'll cause prematurely worn out parts in the rest of the system it's a part of as well. My daily driver is a 25 year old car that I'm keeping on preventive maintenance. I got it when it was 16 years old and still in pretty good shape since it was barely used and always kept in a warm garage. I've always had pretty old, but well maintained cars in order to minimize the total cost of ownership of them, and kept them running until something too difficult or expensive breaks. I never value them for what I'd get for selling them, because I've never sold a car nor planned to. To me, the car value is always the utility and TCO value of knowing the state of them via preventive maintenance repairs. Usually the failing part not worth fixing is the body, either due to a collision or rust damage. In addition to always inspecting an used car from underneath, a thing I learned early was to replace all the cash-cow OEM parts with upgraded parts when possible. If not, at least try to have repaired parts made that are improved at the point of failure to be stronger than OEM parts, so that they don't fail the same way again. Factoring the preventive repair into the price of the used car is required in order to be sure to afford owning the car. After that initial preventive repair, it's about checking the parts stay like new, or it becomes very expensive to keep very quickly once something fails after a part's worn out. Anyhow, look at farm equipment, mine equipment and such to see what vehicles not engineered to fail are constructed like, and I don't mean the extra robustness of the loadbearing parts for the much larger workloads they're designed for.
      - germinalphrase 9y ago
        And advice on identifying such cash-cow parts? My vehicle repair knowledge is limited.
        jammi 9y ago
        Experience first-hand or via experts who repair them daily, the former can be done by owning the same car or brand for a longer while and spotting the pattern. Prefer makes that have excellent rust protection and models with relatively low stress configuration engines rather than high performance models. The two latter are usually mechanically the same or mostly the same, but the latter of them receive much larger stresses in use and hence tend to fail earlier. If you intend to modify the car, prefer older ones, because they have lower regulations, but this depends on the legislative area you are in as well. For instance cars with OBD-II are too new for engine upgrades almost anywhere.
  - dotancohen 9y ago
    OP is being downvoted for starting off on a rant, but he is 100% correct about the grease fittings.
  - bagels 9y ago
    Maybe it's that they don't care. Last transmission I rebuilt (following.factory service manual) had a Phillips fastener with threadlock on it that required destructive removal after careful use of a manual impact driver. Replaced it with a threadlocked Allen fastener.
    - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
      > destructive removal When in doubt, drill it out?

SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago

Even without thread locking compound, if the thing they're stuck in has corroded the screw/bolt or expanded. Phillips shouldn't strip going in, but it sure as hell strips coming out.

stephen_g 9y ago
Yeah, this is compounded by the fact that our products go into marine environments - all our fasteners are 316 stainless but there are still sometimes galvanic issues.
- Gracana 9y ago
  Stainless fasteners are the worst. My company builds food equipment so they're a necessity, but... ugh. They gall terribly and they're squishy. If there happens to be a burr or crud in the threads, you might as well grab your angle grinder and drill, because that screw is not going to come out any other way.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    It's interesting you say that, because I had a good experience with stainless! I used to use a lot of stainless bolts on machines that went into hostile[1] environments. We used a variety of hex socket bolts, with thread lock compounds and calibrated torgue drivers to put them in and uncalibrated drivers to take them out when they eventually came back for refurb. We rarely had problems putting them in or taking them out. I don't know why problems were so rare. I think it being a safety critical industry helped: we bought expensive bolts and tools, and people had some training to use them. [1] These were used on "Chock Control Interfaces". Here's a video. The box he's pushing buttons on is a chock control interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s Here's an explanation of longwall mining and what a chock is (simply, powered roof supports that move forward as the cutting tool removes material): http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1chock.aspx http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1cho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment

magduf 9y ago

>I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Yeah, that's your problem right there. Removing an old Phillips screw will take more (usually much more) torque than it took to install it, so it'll cam out. The problem is that you're trying to get them out. Don't do that. Phillips screws were never designed for removal that way. They were meant to be used for installation only, and to limit torque on installation. If it's been installed with thread-locker, that should be a sign to you that it's never supposed to be removed. If you want a screw that's meant to be removed after years of service, pick something else; Phillips is not designed for this.

Ajedi32 9y ago
Unfortunately, if you're trying to remove a screw after years of service, chances are you weren't the one who originally decided what type of screw head to use.
vertexFarm 9y ago
He's correct about this. Phillips was an early attempt at a one-way fastener. Doesn't mean the manufacturer isn't a dick for using them. If you're working on something really important, like auto mechanics or the like, consider buying new fasteners when you reach re-assembly. Those old stretched bolts probably need to be freshened up anyway.