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Phillips screws are design to have the driver leave the socket if it is over-torqued. Frequently people keep going after this has occurred which results in str

Phillips screws are design to have the driver leave the socket if it is over-torqued. Frequently people keep going after this has occurred which results in stripped heads, but if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen.

stephen_g 8y ago
I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench. We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.
- slededit 8y ago
  Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.
  - bagels 8y ago
    I wish auto manufacturers knew this.
    - jammi 8y ago
      They do. Cars are engineered to fail and some models are sold even at loss to get the profit from OEM parts and service. This is also often the reason why seemingly similar parts are incompatible from one model to the next; the manufacturers are racing against the (often much more durable) aftermarket parts. If they were in the business of making cars great for the consumers, they'd engineer them strong with grease fittings on every moving joint and have all parts standardized across models and brands, differentiated mostly by car size or such (supercompact vs crossover suv vs heavy-duty truck). This would however result in cars that would be easily maintained to last forever, like some old work equipment is and that'd be bad for the planned obsolescence market model of car manufacturers.
      - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
        And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)
        jammi 8y ago
        Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has excessive backlash, it'll cause prematurely worn out parts in the rest of the system it's a part of as well. My daily driver is a 25 year old car that I'm keeping on preventive maintenance. I got it when it was 16 years old and still in pretty good shape since it was barely used and always kept in a warm garage. I've always had pretty old, but well maintained cars in order to minimize the total cost of ownership of them, and kept them running until something too difficult or expensive breaks. I never value them for what I'd get for selling them, because I've never sold a car nor planned to. To me, the car value is always the utility and TCO value of knowing the state of them via preventive maintenance repairs. Usually the failing part not worth fixing is the body, either due to a collision or rust damage. In addition to always inspecting an used car from underneath, a thing I learned early was to replace all the cash-cow OEM parts with upgraded parts when possible. If not, at least try to have repaired parts made that are improved at the point of failure to be stronger than OEM parts, so that they don't fail the same way again. Factoring the preventive repair into the price of the used car is required in order to be sure to afford owning the car. After that initial preventive repair, it's about checking the parts stay like new, or it becomes very expensive to keep very quickly once something fails after a part's worn out. Anyhow, look at farm equipment, mine equipment and such to see what vehicles not engineered to fail are constructed like, and I don't mean the extra robustness of the loadbearing parts for the much larger workloads they're designed for.
- SAI_Peregrinus 8y ago
  Even without thread locking compound, if the thing they're stuck in has corroded the screw/bolt or expanded. Phillips shouldn't strip going in, but it sure as hell strips coming out.
  - stephen_g 8y ago
    Yeah, this is compounded by the fact that our products go into marine environments - all our fasteners are 316 stainless but there are still sometimes galvanic issues.
    - Gracana 8y ago
      Stainless fasteners are the worst. My company builds food equipment so they're a necessity, but... ugh. They gall terribly and they're squishy. If there happens to be a burr or crud in the threads, you might as well grab your angle grinder and drill, because that screw is not going to come out any other way.
      - DanBC 8y ago
        It's interesting you say that, because I had a good experience with stainless! I used to use a lot of stainless bolts on machines that went into hostile[1] environments. We used a variety of hex socket bolts, with thread lock compounds and calibrated torgue drivers to put them in and uncalibrated drivers to take them out when they eventually came back for refurb. We rarely had problems putting them in or taking them out. I don't know why problems were so rare. I think it being a safety critical industry helped: we bought expensive bolts and tools, and people had some training to use them. [1] These were used on "Chock Control Interfaces". Here's a video. The box he's pushing buttons on is a chock control interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s Here's an explanation of longwall mining and what a chock is (simply, powered roof supports that move forward as the cutting tool removes material): http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1chock.aspx http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1cho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment
- magduf 8y ago
  >I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Yeah, that's your problem right there. Removing an old Phillips screw will take more (usually much more) torque than it took to install it, so it'll cam out. The problem is that you're trying to get them out. Don't do that. Phillips screws were never designed for removal that way. They were meant to be used for installation only, and to limit torque on installation. If it's been installed with thread-locker, that should be a sign to you that it's never supposed to be removed. If you want a screw that's meant to be removed after years of service, pick something else; Phillips is not designed for this.
  - Ajedi32 8y ago
    Unfortunately, if you're trying to remove a screw after years of service, chances are you weren't the one who originally decided what type of screw head to use.
  - vertexFarm 8y ago
    He's correct about this. Phillips was an early attempt at a one-way fastener. Doesn't mean the manufacturer isn't a dick for using them. If you're working on something really important, like auto mechanics or the like, consider buying new fasteners when you reach re-assembly. Those old stretched bolts probably need to be freshened up anyway.
chris_wot 8y ago
The article states that there is no evidence for this being part of the design.
- slededit 8y ago
  It is mentioned in later patents, and regardless it is a specific part of the tool's behavior. Its continued use is based upon this fact.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    Yup, article says that too. But it wasn’t originally by design.
wyclif 8y ago
Recently, Fender (the electric guitar manufacturer) began offering vintage reissue models with the originally-issued flathead screws, at some point years ago they had switched to Phillips. When doing any kind of modification or repair, I realised after getting one of the vintage models that I preferred flathead for that reason. Phillips is bad on guitars because not only is it easy to strip the head, but you can also end up dinging the top of the guitar when the screwdriver tip dislodges and hits the nice top finish. This is also why you should only use a hand screwdriver and not a power driven driver bit.
- gaustin 8y ago
  That is as much a technique problem as it is a fastener problem. Use a torque driver if you can. And always bracket the bit with your fingers. If you are straining, something is wrong.
freehunter 8y ago
>if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen. The problem is when the tool is telling you the screw is tight enough but it's only halfway in. Or hasn't come out yet. That's where the stripping happens.
- scrumper 8y ago
  There's a whole set of skills needed. If it's only half way in when it cams out, then you need a bigger pilot hole. If you're screwing into wood, another useful tip is to dip the screws in vaseline (petroleum jelly) first. If you're getting stuck removing the screw, wait 6 months for the humidity profile to change and the wood to open up. I'm being slightly factious and I share your pain. The vaseline tip is real though.

stephen_g 8y ago

I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench. We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.

slededit 8y ago
Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.
- bagels 8y ago
  I wish auto manufacturers knew this.
  - jammi 8y ago
    They do. Cars are engineered to fail and some models are sold even at loss to get the profit from OEM parts and service. This is also often the reason why seemingly similar parts are incompatible from one model to the next; the manufacturers are racing against the (often much more durable) aftermarket parts. If they were in the business of making cars great for the consumers, they'd engineer them strong with grease fittings on every moving joint and have all parts standardized across models and brands, differentiated mostly by car size or such (supercompact vs crossover suv vs heavy-duty truck). This would however result in cars that would be easily maintained to last forever, like some old work equipment is and that'd be bad for the planned obsolescence market model of car manufacturers.
    - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
      And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)
      - jammi 8y ago
        Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has excessive backlash, it'll cause prematurely worn out parts in the rest of the system it's a part of as well. My daily driver is a 25 year old car that I'm keeping on preventive maintenance. I got it when it was 16 years old and still in pretty good shape since it was barely used and always kept in a warm garage. I've always had pretty old, but well maintained cars in order to minimize the total cost of ownership of them, and kept them running until something too difficult or expensive breaks. I never value them for what I'd get for selling them, because I've never sold a car nor planned to. To me, the car value is always the utility and TCO value of knowing the state of them via preventive maintenance repairs. Usually the failing part not worth fixing is the body, either due to a collision or rust damage. In addition to always inspecting an used car from underneath, a thing I learned early was to replace all the cash-cow OEM parts with upgraded parts when possible. If not, at least try to have repaired parts made that are improved at the point of failure to be stronger than OEM parts, so that they don't fail the same way again. Factoring the preventive repair into the price of the used car is required in order to be sure to afford owning the car. After that initial preventive repair, it's about checking the parts stay like new, or it becomes very expensive to keep very quickly once something fails after a part's worn out. Anyhow, look at farm equipment, mine equipment and such to see what vehicles not engineered to fail are constructed like, and I don't mean the extra robustness of the loadbearing parts for the much larger workloads they're designed for.
SAI_Peregrinus 8y ago
Even without thread locking compound, if the thing they're stuck in has corroded the screw/bolt or expanded. Phillips shouldn't strip going in, but it sure as hell strips coming out.
- stephen_g 8y ago
  Yeah, this is compounded by the fact that our products go into marine environments - all our fasteners are 316 stainless but there are still sometimes galvanic issues.
  - Gracana 8y ago
    Stainless fasteners are the worst. My company builds food equipment so they're a necessity, but... ugh. They gall terribly and they're squishy. If there happens to be a burr or crud in the threads, you might as well grab your angle grinder and drill, because that screw is not going to come out any other way.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      It's interesting you say that, because I had a good experience with stainless! I used to use a lot of stainless bolts on machines that went into hostile[1] environments. We used a variety of hex socket bolts, with thread lock compounds and calibrated torgue drivers to put them in and uncalibrated drivers to take them out when they eventually came back for refurb. We rarely had problems putting them in or taking them out. I don't know why problems were so rare. I think it being a safety critical industry helped: we bought expensive bolts and tools, and people had some training to use them. [1] These were used on "Chock Control Interfaces". Here's a video. The box he's pushing buttons on is a chock control interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s Here's an explanation of longwall mining and what a chock is (simply, powered roof supports that move forward as the cutting tool removes material): http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1chock.aspx http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1cho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment
magduf 8y ago
>I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Yeah, that's your problem right there. Removing an old Phillips screw will take more (usually much more) torque than it took to install it, so it'll cam out. The problem is that you're trying to get them out. Don't do that. Phillips screws were never designed for removal that way. They were meant to be used for installation only, and to limit torque on installation. If it's been installed with thread-locker, that should be a sign to you that it's never supposed to be removed. If you want a screw that's meant to be removed after years of service, pick something else; Phillips is not designed for this.
- Ajedi32 8y ago
  Unfortunately, if you're trying to remove a screw after years of service, chances are you weren't the one who originally decided what type of screw head to use.
- vertexFarm 8y ago
  He's correct about this. Phillips was an early attempt at a one-way fastener. Doesn't mean the manufacturer isn't a dick for using them. If you're working on something really important, like auto mechanics or the like, consider buying new fasteners when you reach re-assembly. Those old stretched bolts probably need to be freshened up anyway.

chris_wot 8y ago

The article states that there is no evidence for this being part of the design.

slededit 8y ago
It is mentioned in later patents, and regardless it is a specific part of the tool's behavior. Its continued use is based upon this fact.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  Yup, article says that too. But it wasn’t originally by design.

wyclif 8y ago

Recently, Fender (the electric guitar manufacturer) began offering vintage reissue models with the originally-issued flathead screws, at some point years ago they had switched to Phillips. When doing any kind of modification or repair, I realised after getting one of the vintage models that I preferred flathead for that reason. Phillips is bad on guitars because not only is it easy to strip the head, but you can also end up dinging the top of the guitar when the screwdriver tip dislodges and hits the nice top finish. This is also why you should only use a hand screwdriver and not a power driven driver bit.

gaustin 8y ago
That is as much a technique problem as it is a fastener problem. Use a torque driver if you can. And always bracket the bit with your fingers. If you are straining, something is wrong.

freehunter 8y ago

>if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen. The problem is when the tool is telling you the screw is tight enough but it's only halfway in. Or hasn't come out yet. That's where the stripping happens.

scrumper 8y ago
There's a whole set of skills needed. If it's only half way in when it cams out, then you need a bigger pilot hole. If you're screwing into wood, another useful tip is to dip the screws in vaseline (petroleum jelly) first. If you're getting stuck removing the screw, wait 6 months for the humidity profile to change and the wood to open up. I'm being slightly factious and I share your pain. The vaseline tip is real though.