4 ms·

Rms was in the clear wrong. This is a professional setting,that joke wasn't professional. If you wouldn't say it at a work meeting then it's probably not a goo

Rms was in the clear wrong. This is a professional setting,that joke wasn't professional. If you wouldn't say it at a work meeting then it's probably not a good idea to say the same in a commit or a serious thread of a foss project. Although I don't like the joke,it's not so much the content of the joke but rather where the joke was spoken that seemed inappropriate. I am not offended. much like a coworker coming to work topless in shorts won't offend me;I'd just think that attire is best for outdoors or the beach instead of an office.

eesmith 9y ago
I have tried, but failed, to understand what "wasn't professional" means. As far as I can tell, it is a synonym for "doesn't upset the status quo." Clearly there are work meetings where this sort of joke/commentary would be voiced. For example, the writers' room at the various satirical news shows. There are, after all, professional comedians, including those which work blue. I've heard people say that children in the workplace isn't professional. Then I think about professional teachers and pediatricians who have children at a workplace. As a child I sometimes went with my father to his job. I don't think he was considered unprofessional for that. I've heard people say that drinking alcohol on the job isn't professional, and that one should follow a dress code. Then I see people on the job at a conference, drinking, and at one Python conference dressed up in unicorn costume. It's therefore very context dependent, which is why I don't think "professional" is a useful way to think about the topic. FWIW, I had a co-worker who was topless in shorts at the office. We were coming back from lunch in a downpour one summer. He wasn't prepared for it, his shirt was sopping wet, and keeping it on was a problem in the A/C'ed room. Having his shirt off wasn't a problem, and he wasn't considered unprofessional for doing so. That's because it didn't upset the status quo.
- badrabbit 9y ago
  You have to consider who your coworkers are. It's all about being considerate of the other people that work alongside you. In a small group everyone might know each other well enough to make that sort of a joke. But when your coworkers could be literally anyone, from a guy in his undies coding as a hobby to someone at a fortune 100 working in a cubicle farm sporting a tuxedo. It seems like the goal is to not offend anyone because that exactly is the goal -- anyone can work on it. There is no way to get to know every participant of a large foss project on a personal level so much so that you understand what jokes they find acceptable or not. So, simply don't make comment irrelevant to the work at hand. Some foss groups specifically dedicate mailing lists and chat rooms for the purpose of socializing where similar jokes and possibly offensive content might be tolerated. When it comes to commits,dev lists,posts or threads it isn't professional to insert irrelevant commentary (at least for a public foss project,one can always have their own company culture and rules for intra-company or private projects)
  - eesmith 9y ago
    Thank you for the follow up. I have a better sense of what you mean now. Part of me still thinks "professional" means "don't upset the status quo", but I will continue to think about it. You mentioned "irrelevant commentary". That made me think of what US employment law refers to as "bona fide occupational qualifications" where employers are allowed to discriminate based on gender, race, religion, etc. It is not workplace harassment to see pornography in the workplace if one works as a video editor in a pornography studio. Pornography at the workplace, therefore, is not an unambiguous sign of unprofessional activity. Now, some software is designed such that the humor will offend some people. The first one that came to mind is Leisure Suit Larry, which is a mild example. Can something like Leisure Suit Larry be developed as a public FOSS project, in a professional sense? Absolutely. But in that case I think there is a bona fide requirement that participants understand that certain jokes are acceptable. My view is that since 'professional' seems so contextual, it seems better to explain the specific context (as you did - thanks again!) than to say something isn't professional.
koala_man 9y ago
Stallman's from the hippie generation and a project like GNU must have had a strong "stick it to The Man" element. He basically dedicated his life to rejecting the IBM era corporate culture and "professionalism". I guess I can see where he's coming from, even though I totally disagree and find this view as irrelevant and dated as the dumb joke.
- Sacho 9y ago
  How dated is the joke? Is it not about current US policy?

eesmith 9y ago

I have tried, but failed, to understand what "wasn't professional" means. As far as I can tell, it is a synonym for "doesn't upset the status quo." Clearly there are work meetings where this sort of joke/commentary would be voiced. For example, the writers' room at the various satirical news shows. There are, after all, professional comedians, including those which work blue. I've heard people say that children in the workplace isn't professional. Then I think about professional teachers and pediatricians who have children at a workplace. As a child I sometimes went with my father to his job. I don't think he was considered unprofessional for that. I've heard people say that drinking alcohol on the job isn't professional, and that one should follow a dress code. Then I see people on the job at a conference, drinking, and at one Python conference dressed up in unicorn costume. It's therefore very context dependent, which is why I don't think "professional" is a useful way to think about the topic. FWIW, I had a co-worker who was topless in shorts at the office. We were coming back from lunch in a downpour one summer. He wasn't prepared for it, his shirt was sopping wet, and keeping it on was a problem in the A/C'ed room. Having his shirt off wasn't a problem, and he wasn't considered unprofessional for doing so. That's because it didn't upset the status quo.

badrabbit 9y ago
You have to consider who your coworkers are. It's all about being considerate of the other people that work alongside you. In a small group everyone might know each other well enough to make that sort of a joke. But when your coworkers could be literally anyone, from a guy in his undies coding as a hobby to someone at a fortune 100 working in a cubicle farm sporting a tuxedo. It seems like the goal is to not offend anyone because that exactly is the goal -- anyone can work on it. There is no way to get to know every participant of a large foss project on a personal level so much so that you understand what jokes they find acceptable or not. So, simply don't make comment irrelevant to the work at hand. Some foss groups specifically dedicate mailing lists and chat rooms for the purpose of socializing where similar jokes and possibly offensive content might be tolerated. When it comes to commits,dev lists,posts or threads it isn't professional to insert irrelevant commentary (at least for a public foss project,one can always have their own company culture and rules for intra-company or private projects)
- eesmith 9y ago
  Thank you for the follow up. I have a better sense of what you mean now. Part of me still thinks "professional" means "don't upset the status quo", but I will continue to think about it. You mentioned "irrelevant commentary". That made me think of what US employment law refers to as "bona fide occupational qualifications" where employers are allowed to discriminate based on gender, race, religion, etc. It is not workplace harassment to see pornography in the workplace if one works as a video editor in a pornography studio. Pornography at the workplace, therefore, is not an unambiguous sign of unprofessional activity. Now, some software is designed such that the humor will offend some people. The first one that came to mind is Leisure Suit Larry, which is a mild example. Can something like Leisure Suit Larry be developed as a public FOSS project, in a professional sense? Absolutely. But in that case I think there is a bona fide requirement that participants understand that certain jokes are acceptable. My view is that since 'professional' seems so contextual, it seems better to explain the specific context (as you did - thanks again!) than to say something isn't professional.

koala_man 9y ago

Stallman's from the hippie generation and a project like GNU must have had a strong "stick it to The Man" element. He basically dedicated his life to rejecting the IBM era corporate culture and "professionalism". I guess I can see where he's coming from, even though I totally disagree and find this view as irrelevant and dated as the dumb joke.

Sacho 9y ago
How dated is the joke? Is it not about current US policy?