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This is tangentially related: I came across this Reddit post a while back that I found very insightful. In the area of submarine design, the Soviets/Russians ar

This is tangentially related: I came across this Reddit post a while back that I found very insightful. In the area of submarine design, the Soviets/Russians are actually much more innovative than Americans. They seem much more willing to try new ideas whereas Americans stuck to a more conservative try and true design. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_were_the_primary_differences_between_soviet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3bzekv/what_...

theoh 8y ago
That is an interesting post. it relates to the KISS philosophy, which apparently originated in the US military (at least, that name for it). Also the reformers of the 70s and 80s, the group around John Boyd, Pierre Sprey etc., really pushed for simpler equipment, in opposition to high-tech complexity. It's a recurring theme, and it's definitely a kind of conservatism since it always keeps a (more or less) skilled man in the loop. In a way it creates the conditions for human excellence in the old sense, which automation does away with. This 2010 book on cultural differences in military innovation may also be relevant: The Culture of Military Innovation The Impact of Cultural Factors on the Revolution in Military Affairs in Russia, the US, and Israel. DIMA ADAMSKY https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104
jgalt212 8y ago
no doubt, the caterpillar drive was revolutionary and big source of fear in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submarine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submari...
- aj7 8y ago
  Science fiction for working submarines.
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_subma... the list of sunken Soviet submarines is much longer than the list of sunken US submarines, how is that explained?
- freeone3000 8y ago
  They're more innovative. Move fast and break things, right?
  - willvarfar 8y ago
    Early on they rushed poorly designed submarines out with poorly trained crews and poor leadership. There was also a blame culture eg welding rescue bouys to the hull because if they came loose accidentally then the factory would be punished! This is well described eg in Nat Geo book on K19.
  - gandhium 8y ago
    "Move fast and break things" doesn't sound right, when "things" are your own citizens. But it's only my opinion, probably.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      That’s exactly the way it’s been done over Russian history. Except for the long periods of moving slow and killing citizens.
    - vkou 8y ago
      There was a profound disregard for safety in most branches of the Red Army.
    - golergka 8y ago
      People were the cheapest resource in Russia since about forever.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      Is it better if they are not your own citizens?
    - monocasa 8y ago
      Apparently they also designed heavily for survivability, more so than the American subs. So sounds more like calculated risks.

theoh 8y ago

That is an interesting post. it relates to the KISS philosophy, which apparently originated in the US military (at least, that name for it). Also the reformers of the 70s and 80s, the group around John Boyd, Pierre Sprey etc., really pushed for simpler equipment, in opposition to high-tech complexity. It's a recurring theme, and it's definitely a kind of conservatism since it always keeps a (more or less) skilled man in the loop. In a way it creates the conditions for human excellence in the old sense, which automation does away with. This 2010 book on cultural differences in military innovation may also be relevant: The Culture of Military Innovation The Impact of Cultural Factors on the Revolution in Military Affairs in Russia, the US, and Israel. DIMA ADAMSKY https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=18104

jgalt212 8y ago

no doubt, the caterpillar drive was revolutionary and big source of fear in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submarine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_October_(fictional_submari...

aj7 8y ago
Science fiction for working submarines.

MichaelMoser123 8y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_subma... the list of sunken Soviet submarines is much longer than the list of sunken US submarines, how is that explained?

freeone3000 8y ago
They're more innovative. Move fast and break things, right?
- willvarfar 8y ago
  Early on they rushed poorly designed submarines out with poorly trained crews and poor leadership. There was also a blame culture eg welding rescue bouys to the hull because if they came loose accidentally then the factory would be punished! This is well described eg in Nat Geo book on K19.
- gandhium 8y ago
  "Move fast and break things" doesn't sound right, when "things" are your own citizens. But it's only my opinion, probably.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    That’s exactly the way it’s been done over Russian history. Except for the long periods of moving slow and killing citizens.
  - vkou 8y ago
    There was a profound disregard for safety in most branches of the Red Army.
  - golergka 8y ago
    People were the cheapest resource in Russia since about forever.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    Is it better if they are not your own citizens?
  - monocasa 8y ago
    Apparently they also designed heavily for survivability, more so than the American subs. So sounds more like calculated risks.