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Intelligence is a better predictor for success than wealth https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329142035.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/

Intelligence is a better predictor for success than wealth https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329142035.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329142035.h...

jonbarker 8y ago
Intelligence is mostly a result of environment: access to 1-1 tutors, high quality nutrition, supportive peers. None of these things exist in poor areas in the US as far as I can tell.
- quantumofmalice 8y ago
  That is not true. Adult intelligence appears to be ~70-80% based on genetic factors. See The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Richard Haier for an overview of the current consensus in intelligence research.
  - moate 8y ago
    IQ tests are frequently biased. How biased will vary from test to test. Also, the data is can be misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with the tests procedures/results 1 70-80% comes from where? Nobody knows exactly what the "smart genes" are, and studies in twins show that variance between individuals in IQ is about 50%-60% genetic...or 40-50% environmental factors2A/2B Even Haier has said that the fact that intelligence is in some way genetic just means that the factors that might influence those aspects of it would also need to be genetic. This can include things like nutrition and mental illness/stress, which are more prevalent among poorer communities. TL;dr- Just because it's genetic, doesn't mean that it's determined at birth. Your biochemistry is constantly changing based on your environment. 1- http://www.theneuroethicsblog.com/2013/09/intelligence-testing-accurate-or.html http://www.theneuroethicsblog.com/2013/09/intelligence-testi... 2A- http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/genes-dont-just-influence-your-iq-they-determine-how-well-you-do-school http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/genes-dont-just-influ... 2B*- https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence
    - klmr 8y ago
      > 70-80% comes from where? Mostly from twin studies. This number (at least the ballpark figure) is essentially uncontested amongst researchers at this point (see e.g. [1]). However, this is the heritability of the variability of intelligence in adults. In children, that number is close to the one you cited. The rest of what you’ve said is essentially true: heritability is extremely complex and we’re only now getting the first few association studies in to ascertain which genomic loci are associated with changes [2]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25985137 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25985137 [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0040-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0040-6
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- epx 8y ago
  No. This is what SJWs believe.
klmr 8y ago
Maybe (and it’s definitely relevant), although I’m not sure other studies agree. But it is well established that parents’ wealth is an extremely good predictor of children’s wealth (see e.g. [1]). And I don’t think OP is matte_black is denying the role of intelligence. They’re merely noting that poverty, in itself, doesn’t necessarily correlate with ingenuity. [1] https://paperpile.com/app/p/5f560e7d-74f8-0316-879a-70c0cf6080bf https://paperpile.com/app/p/5f560e7d-74f8-0316-879a-70c0cf60...
- tlarkworthy 8y ago
  My stance is that GPs ingenuity of the poor is really the fact that some poor are clever. This makes it look like survivorship bias, (some poor succeed) but actually it's explained by the stronger causal relationship that it's better to be born smart than born wealthy. But of course, as ur link suggests, its even better to be born wealthy and smart as they are both positively correlated with success. But I think in this discussion it's worth highlighting that intelligence is a an important factor that applies to both sides of economic status, and perhaps it's more important.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    It’s much easier to display your intelligence if you have proper nutrition, sleep and exercise. It’s likely harder when you are focused on more primal needs like food.
  - adamsea 8y ago
    Perhaps. But it’s not the relative importance of one thing vs the other which is most important. What is most important in the context of this conversation, imho, is the case for the profound negative effects of poverty, United-States style, on an individuals growth and the (sometimes insurmountable) challenges it creates for that person. And the reason that this matters is that poverty in a country such as the U.S. (and also many, if not most other countries) is the result of a series of political choices by people (social policy, etc) over time. In over words, it’s a phenomenon which is, if not created entirely by, is definitely affected (increased or decreases) by human behavior. Meaning it’s something we can change.

Intelligence is a better predictor for success than wealth https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329142035.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120329142035.h...

jonbarker 8y ago

Intelligence is mostly a result of environment: access to 1-1 tutors, high quality nutrition, supportive peers. None of these things exist in poor areas in the US as far as I can tell.

quantumofmalice 8y ago
That is not true. Adult intelligence appears to be ~70-80% based on genetic factors. See The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Richard Haier for an overview of the current consensus in intelligence research.
- moate 8y ago
  IQ tests are frequently biased. How biased will vary from test to test. Also, the data is can be misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with the tests procedures/results 1 70-80% comes from where? Nobody knows exactly what the "smart genes" are, and studies in twins show that variance between individuals in IQ is about 50%-60% genetic...or 40-50% environmental factors2A/2B Even Haier has said that the fact that intelligence is in some way genetic just means that the factors that might influence those aspects of it would also need to be genetic. This can include things like nutrition and mental illness/stress, which are more prevalent among poorer communities. TL;dr- Just because it's genetic, doesn't mean that it's determined at birth. Your biochemistry is constantly changing based on your environment. 1- http://www.theneuroethicsblog.com/2013/09/intelligence-testing-accurate-or.html http://www.theneuroethicsblog.com/2013/09/intelligence-testi... 2A- http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/genes-dont-just-influence-your-iq-they-determine-how-well-you-do-school http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/genes-dont-just-influ... 2B*- https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence
  - klmr 8y ago
    > 70-80% comes from where? Mostly from twin studies. This number (at least the ballpark figure) is essentially uncontested amongst researchers at this point (see e.g. [1]). However, this is the heritability of the variability of intelligence in adults. In children, that number is close to the one you cited. The rest of what you’ve said is essentially true: heritability is extremely complex and we’re only now getting the first few association studies in to ascertain which genomic loci are associated with changes [2]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25985137 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25985137 [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0040-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0040-6
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epx 8y ago
No. This is what SJWs believe.

klmr 8y ago

Maybe (and it’s definitely relevant), although I’m not sure other studies agree. But it is well established that parents’ wealth is an extremely good predictor of children’s wealth (see e.g. [1]). And I don’t think OP is matte_black is denying the role of intelligence. They’re merely noting that poverty, in itself, doesn’t necessarily correlate with ingenuity. [1] https://paperpile.com/app/p/5f560e7d-74f8-0316-879a-70c0cf6080bf https://paperpile.com/app/p/5f560e7d-74f8-0316-879a-70c0cf60...

tlarkworthy 8y ago
My stance is that GPs ingenuity of the poor is really the fact that some poor are clever. This makes it look like survivorship bias, (some poor succeed) but actually it's explained by the stronger causal relationship that it's better to be born smart than born wealthy. But of course, as ur link suggests, its even better to be born wealthy and smart as they are both positively correlated with success. But I think in this discussion it's worth highlighting that intelligence is a an important factor that applies to both sides of economic status, and perhaps it's more important.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  It’s much easier to display your intelligence if you have proper nutrition, sleep and exercise. It’s likely harder when you are focused on more primal needs like food.
- adamsea 8y ago
  Perhaps. But it’s not the relative importance of one thing vs the other which is most important. What is most important in the context of this conversation, imho, is the case for the profound negative effects of poverty, United-States style, on an individuals growth and the (sometimes insurmountable) challenges it creates for that person. And the reason that this matters is that poverty in a country such as the U.S. (and also many, if not most other countries) is the result of a series of political choices by people (social policy, etc) over time. In over words, it’s a phenomenon which is, if not created entirely by, is definitely affected (increased or decreases) by human behavior. Meaning it’s something we can change.